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MICHAEL: Our keynote speaker
today is Karen Sandler

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She'll be talking about Companies,
Free Software and You.

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Karen is the Executive Director of the
Software Freedom Conservancy and she used

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to be the Executive Director of the GNOME
Foundation

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and she's also working a lot on the
Outreach programme for Women

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and several other programmes, so everyone
please welcome Karen.

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(APPLAUSE)

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KAREN: Thanks so much. I can't even tell you
how beyond excited I am to be at DebConf

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I was briefly at the New York DebConf

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and I was so impressed and enthralled by
Debian that I kind of ran away, (LAUGHTER)

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So all these years later it's so exciting
to be here and to be a speaker.

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I'm Executive Director of Conservancy.

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Raise your hand if you've heard of
Conservancy.

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So that's almost everyone, hooray!

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We're a non-profit charitable fiscal
sponsorship organisation

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These are all of our member projects.

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If you're here, you're surely using a few
of them.

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Two of the member projects that are not
listed here include the

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GPL compliance project for Linux kernel
developers

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and also the Debian Copyright Aggregation
project

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and I'll talk a little bit about those
in a bit.

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I'm also a lawyer, which when I admit I
often have to hide behind the podum

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lest people throw rotten fruit at me, but
I only do pro-bono legal work.

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I do that as a volunteer for the Free
Software Foundation and GNOME

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and a few other free software
organisations.

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I'm really, really in to free software,
and the reason why, for many reasons,

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but largely I'm actually a cyborg.

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I actually, literally have a big heart.

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My heart is three times the size of a
normal person's heart

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and it's fine. I'm mostly asymptomatic,
it's not a big deal,

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but I’m at a very high risk of
suddenly dying.

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The medical term is actually
‘sudden death’.

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It’s 2—3% per year, compounding my risk of
suddenly dying,

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and I was diagnosed at age 3.

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And so it's a very high risk of suddenly
dying, but it’s all fine, because

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my doctors prescribed a pacemaker
defibrillator.

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When you go to the doctor’s office, and
they tell you that you need one of these

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things, the electro-physiologists have

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these devices in their desk drawers.

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The medical device companies give them a
stack of them.

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They're extremely expensive — I got the
bill for mine, I think it was something

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like $75,000 US

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They have them in their drawer, they slide
them over to you, because they want you to

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hold them and to know that theyzre so
small, and so light and theyzre not scary.

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They say ‘hold this’, so I take it, and I
hold it, and I’m looking at it,

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and the doctor’s looking at me like
‘Right? This is OK, right?’

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And I say ‘OK, so what does it run?’

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(LAUGHTER)

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And the guy looked at me and said ‘Run?’

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And so I said ‘Oh, yeah’, so then I
explained there’s software in this device.

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We had a little back and forth, and he
said ‘Well, don't worry about it because

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I'm going to get the representative from
Medtronic, who you’re so lucky is in

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the office today!’ and that guy said
‘Software? Run?’

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This sent me down a path where I started
researching the safety of software

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in these devices and I was luckily able to
make it a part of my job, and do a bunch

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of research, and ultimately, I decided I
had to get this defibrillator and get

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proprietary software literally implanted
into my body and screwed into my heart.

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And that I would advocate for software
safety.

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When you start looking at your own
mortality

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and your own life, and you realise that
you rely on software that you can’t see,

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that you can’t review, you can’t get
anyone else to review it,

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if there’s a problem you can’t patch it.

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And worse still, locked in to single
vendors

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if there’s a catastrophic failure at one
of these medical device companies,

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then we’re out of luck.

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I can't update my defibrillator, and it is
a problem.

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I have to wait until Metronic —

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Well, I'm picking on Metronic, but I chose
them because I thought they were the

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best of the bunch —

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but I have to wait for Metronic to admit
that there’s a problem,

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for them to make a fix, to deploy that fix

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I’m completely powerless

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Once you start thinking about your medical
devices and your heart

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It’s not a long walk to get to cars.

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A luxury car is 100 million lines of code

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and the Software Engineering Institute

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estimates that there’s 1 bug introduced
for every 100 lines of code

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So even if we’re catching the vast
majority, medical device recalls have

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demonstrated that simple things like
all-pairs testing would have avoided

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98% of the software recalls in medical
devices, it’s all really fascinating.

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It’s a whole talk in itself.

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For me, this got me extremely passionate
about software freedom,

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where I previously thought that open
source was cool.

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I have now come along to the view that
software freedom is absolutely essential

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to our lives, to our society, and to our
overall framework.

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That has put me solidly in the free
software space and

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I am lucky that I get to work on the
charity side.

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The Software Freedom Conservancy is a
501(c)3

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That’s a reference to the US tax code

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Extremely geeky and you get a lot of
people in our space who know all about

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the different tax codes and will rattle
off different numbers to you.

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It’s like the same people who rattle off
sections of the GPL to you.

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(c)3 refers to the US tax code

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It’s a charity and there are analogues

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in every country — most of them have —

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different types of charitable
organisations, vs

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a trade association which in the US is a
(c)6 — you’ll hear people say

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‘It’s a (c)3, it’s a (c)6’

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(c)3 — charity, (c)6 — trade association

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We’ve got companies, free software is
developed in a wide variety of ways,

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in a wide variety of organisations

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and all these organisations are working
together

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on a lot of the same goals

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but with extremely different motivations.

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If you look at all these different areas,

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you can start to contemplate how that
might start to play out.

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In this talk, I’m focusing on the company
element because I think that

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we’re sort of at point of a tree in free
and open source software where we're able

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to see what’s happened over a longer
period of time

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and start to look forward in how that
impacts us.

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I think it’s so awesome that companies
have an interest in free software.

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Raise your hand if you’re making money by
working in free and open source software.

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It’s like, ¾ of the room!

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I did notice that John Sullivan of the FSF
was raising his hand too. (LAUGHTER)

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And I should raise my hand too, because I
do take a salary from Conservancy.

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The Company interest in free and open
source software is fantastic because it

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means we all get to work on making sure
there’s great free and open source

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software that companies use in their
products.

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It works out well for a lot of reasons

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I think that, in fact, it’s essential that
companies be interested in free and open

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source software because it takes free and
open source software to another level.

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It means that free software is doing
something right

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if the software is so good that companies
are deploying it in their products

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and it’s now an essential part of the
software that companies need to be

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relevant and to bring their products to
market.

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It’s great that there’s money in free and
open source software because

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everyone needs to eat.

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On top of that, we can do a lot more when
there are people working full time

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on these issues.

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When companies are employing those people
to work in free software

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there are interesting things that happen.

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This works out some of the time.

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It works out where companies employ people
to work in free software,

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and great work is done, and everyone
benefits from it.

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Companies have increased software to draw
from.

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Companies work together where they're
allies in some ways, and

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competitors in others

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It's very interesting.

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This is a slide from the Linux Foundation
brochure.

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They may have updated it since then, but
it sort of says all the places

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where Linux is and you can appreciate how
much money there is in free software

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and how relevant Linux is generally —
the Linux kernel.

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Or GNU/Linux.

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When you start to evaluate the presence of
companies in free software you start to

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feel the boundaries of where lawyers say
our interests are aligned.

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When we're talking about people who have
different motivations

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or are interested in different things,
but are working together.

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So their interests are aligned.

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You can see how the free software
community and society's interests

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are often aligned with companies.

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But when you start to think about it
closely, you start to get

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to the borders and boundaries of where
those interests are, in fact, aligned.

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During that introductory panel yesterday
about open hardware we started

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to touch on it.

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Andy was talking about a particular
product,

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where the product was effectively bricked
because the company who had sold it

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had turned off the services to it.

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Bdale was talking about how in an Internet
of Things, we really need open standards

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and we need to make choices where we can
work together so that the efforts we make

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individually extend to everyone.

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I think that starts to hit it on the head.

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I think that where we start to think
critically on the role of free software

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in society, or the role of free software
at companies,

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we hit against this idea very, very
quickly.

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Edward Snowden gave a really amazing
keynote Q&A at LibrePlanet.

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There he said "while sometimes
corporations are on our side,

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and sometimes stand up for the public
interest,

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we should not have to rely on them."

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That's the thing - companies can do the
right thing.

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They can have societal interests at heart

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but it's not their goal, it's not their
job, it's not what they're set up for.

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They're set up to maximise profit.

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And there are ethical rules, and different
countries have different rules about

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things that companies can do.

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I don't want to overly dramatise it.

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I don't think that anyone can say that
companies are evil.

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There could in extreme cases be evil
people that are working at

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a particular company.

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These things are much more complex.

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It's just that companies have the goal of
making profit.

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They're not necessarily looking out for
the public interest.

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In fact they often have incentives such
that

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they're not focused on the public interest
at all.

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Raise your hand if you've heard of
Volkswagen and the scandal that happened

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recently - I think that's probably
everybody.

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Raise your hand if you've heard about
VMware and the lawsuit against them.

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So that, like three quarters.

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I chose these two companies not because
they begin with the letter 'V' [laughter]

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The Volkswagen scandal, which I don't
think I need to go in to,

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I think everybody raised their hand,

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was very interesting because

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it was a part of technology where

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if the engineers in house, like those
working in VMware, had felt empowered

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to raise the issue much, much earlier

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you would see that actually, Volkswagen
would have done better profit wise, too.

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It's a really interesting situation,
because

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having the scandal, and some of the people
knew that this was happening

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and the corporate culture was such that
they determined it was more

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in Volkswagen's interest to keep this
quiet, hoping they wouldn't be caught.

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Corporate interests sometimes point in
that direction, whereas if -

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well, I'll get to that at some point.

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But VMware is very interesting because,

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for people who didn't know, and there's
about a quarter of you who didn't.

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One of the things we do at the Software
Freedom Conservancy is that we have

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a group of kernel developers who hold
copyrights in their portions of the Linux

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Kernel and they come together as a group
within Conservancy to have us

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enforce their copyrights.

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So we go knocking on companies doors and
we say:

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"Hey, you've got no source with your
product, and no offer for source.

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Can you do something about it" and we have
a lot of back and forth about that.

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We also now have the Debian Copyright
Aggregation project

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which does a similar thing for Debian.

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VMware was a company that we had tried to
get into compliance for four years.

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While they had made significant progress
towards doing the right thing and having

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compliance, at the end of the day they put
their foot down and said that they

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basically didn't agree with the derivative
works provisions of the GPL,

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as how it related to VMware, and they
refused to comply.

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And so Christoph Hellwig filed a lawsuit
that Conservancy funded in Germany and

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that's starting to unfold and it'll be
interesting to see

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where that case lies.

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All of these things point towards
motivations of companies

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with their use of software and how that
might be different from

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what the community might want.

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One of those ways that plays out in a very
fundamental way is the timescale at which

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companies are acting are often more
concerned with their quarterly results

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than they are with their long term
results.

227
00:15:47,699 --> 00:15:52,286
And so they're going to be highly
motivated to look a little bit more

228
00:15:52,286 --> 00:15:54,336
short term, as opposed to —

229
00:15:54,336 --> 00:15:58,186
There are some companies that think very
strategically about the long term -

230
00:15:58,186 --> 00:16:02,004
but overall global corporate culture has
become one,

231
00:16:02,004 --> 00:16:07,859
such that companies are really trying to
maximise their quarterly results.

232
00:16:07,859 --> 00:16:14,561
What makes a good short to medium-term
decision for a company is often not at all

233
00:16:14,561 --> 00:16:21,038
what is good for society, or even in the
long-term interests of customers,

234
00:16:21,038 --> 00:16:25,887
because companies don't necessarily care
if you'll be a customer of their's

235
00:16:25,887 --> 00:16:29,784
in 10 years, they care more that you
continue tomorrow, and next week,

236
00:16:29,784 --> 00:16:32,211
and next month.

237
00:16:32,211 --> 00:16:36,108
Especially in technology where it's very
hard to predict where technology might go

238
00:16:36,108 --> 00:16:38,438
within the next year or two.

239
00:16:38,438 --> 00:16:41,700
There are a lot of ways in which companies

240
00:16:41,700 --> 00:16:47,536
don't necessarily have your interests at
heart that are not necessarily nefarious.

241
00:16:47,536 --> 00:16:51,534
For example, I have this pacemaker
defibrillator.

242
00:16:51,534 --> 00:17:00,099
I am not in the standard set of people who
get pacemaker defibrillators.

243
00:17:00,099 --> 00:17:05,403
Still, I'm young enough that that's still
true.

244
00:17:05,403 --> 00:17:10,557
I was recently pregnant, and when I've
been pregnant, I've been shocked twice

245
00:17:10,557 --> 00:17:13,367
inappropriately by my defibrillator.

246
00:17:13,367 --> 00:17:17,385
Because my heart was doing something that
a normal pregnant woman's heart does.

247
00:17:17,385 --> 00:17:21,539
Pregnant women often have their hearts
race and my pulse shot up and

248
00:17:21,539 --> 00:17:27,849
I got shocked twice even though I was not
in need of a shock.

249
00:17:27,849 --> 00:17:34,442
Simply put - I couldn't expect Medtronic
to be focused on my use case,

250
00:17:34,442 --> 00:17:39,936
because for example when I went to my
obstetrician in New York city,

251
00:17:39,936 --> 00:17:45,543
at a major hospital, where the high risk
doctor surely saw thousands of -

252
00:17:45,543 --> 00:17:49,336
I mean, she's a senior in her career,
she's a great doctor -

253
00:17:49,336 --> 00:17:52,715
and there were a couple of things I said
to her like, you know:

254
00:17:52,715 --> 00:17:57,587
"If you have patients with defibrillators
you should know that if they get an

255
00:17:57,587 --> 00:18:01,244
epidural, it reminds you of getting
shocked."

256
00:18:01,244 --> 00:18:03,232
You should know this for your future
defibrillator patients.

257
00:18:03,232 --> 00:18:06,575
And she looked at me and she said: "Karen,
I don't have defibrillator patients that

258
00:18:06,575 --> 00:18:14,172
have babies! I've had one other patient in
all of my years, like 5 years ago who had

259
00:18:14,172 --> 00:18:17,637
a defibrillator, who had a baby in my
hospital"

260
00:18:17,637 --> 00:18:22,001
It's simply the class of people who have
defibrillators and the class of people who

261
00:18:22,001 --> 00:18:25,805
have babies overlap very little.

262
00:18:25,805 --> 00:18:29,417
So Metronic as a company doesn't have a
strong sample set to work with.

263
00:18:29,417 --> 00:18:31,504
They're not focused on the use case.

264
00:18:31,504 --> 00:18:36,563
I promise you that Metronic does not want
their pregnant patients being shocked.

265
00:18:38,929 --> 00:18:39,179
(LAUGHTER)

266
00:18:39,179 --> 00:18:42,464
They have a strong interest in making sure
that pregnant women with heart

267
00:18:42,464 --> 00:18:44,950
conditions are not inappropriately
shocked.

268
00:18:48,851 --> 00:18:49,101
But nonetheless, I was shocked because the

269
00:18:51,715 --> 00:18:51,965
company simply wasn't focused on my
use case.

270
00:18:51,965 --> 00:18:55,184
And this can happen in many ways, and it's
hard to predict the ways in which you're

271
00:18:55,184 --> 00:18:58,219
using software that was written for one
purpose,

272
00:18:58,219 --> 00:19:02,701
how you might be using it for a use case
that wasn't anticipated.

273
00:19:02,701 --> 00:19:05,637
This is true across the board.

274
00:19:05,637 --> 00:19:08,809
My health condition is just a metaphor for
all the ways we use software.

275
00:19:08,809 --> 00:19:11,251
When you move from one geographic region
into another,

276
00:19:11,251 --> 00:19:14,082
communities have different needs, and they
different cultures, and they use

277
00:19:14,082 --> 00:19:16,673
software very differently.

278
00:19:16,673 --> 00:19:22,235
We could talk a lot - and I hope that we
do informally - about how improving

279
00:19:22,235 --> 00:19:26,720
diversity in our communities helps us deal
with that a little bit more by

280
00:19:26,720 --> 00:19:32,028
anticipating use cases across cultures and
across expectations.

281
00:19:32,028 --> 00:19:37,675
That's sort of one way that there's sort
of a mismatch.

282
00:19:37,675 --> 00:19:44,712
How many people here think that free
software and open source software

283
00:19:44,712 --> 00:19:47,163
are the same thing? Raise your hand.

284
00:19:47,163 --> 00:19:49,953
It's not a trick question, whatever you
think - if you think it's the same thing,

285
00:19:49,953 --> 00:19:51,227
raise your hand.

286
00:19:51,227 --> 00:19:53,715
How may people think they're radically
different things, or different things?

287
00:19:53,715 --> 00:19:56,202
Ok, so it's interesting.

288
00:19:56,202 --> 00:19:59,864
More people thought they were different
things than thought they were the same,

289
00:19:59,864 --> 00:20:02,747
but there were a lot of people who were
undecided.

290
00:20:02,747 --> 00:20:03,829
I can tell you that maybe five years ago,
maybe more,

291
00:20:07,998 --> 00:20:15,273
I was on a real advocating bent to
convince people that it really didn't

292
00:20:15,273 --> 00:20:17,910
matter what we called free software and
open source software,

293
00:20:17,910 --> 00:20:20,792
it didn't matter what we called it as long
as we were talking about freedom.

294
00:20:20,792 --> 00:20:26,128
And if you look, the definition - the four
freedoms, and the open source definition

295
00:20:26,128 --> 00:20:27,498
line up pretty well.

296
00:20:27,498 --> 00:20:32,958
There are a few, very historic, situations
where there are licenses that are

297
00:20:32,958 --> 00:20:39,980
approved by OSI but not on the Free
Software Foundation's list,

298
00:20:39,980 --> 00:20:44,253
but generally, what they're talking about
in principle are the same thing.

299
00:20:44,253 --> 00:20:48,823
So I think from a legal perspective we can
use the terms interchangeably,

300
00:20:48,823 --> 00:20:54,541
but with the perspective now that I've had
of watching companies in our space

301
00:20:54,541 --> 00:20:59,530
a little bit more, I actually feel a
little bad about the glossing over that

302
00:20:59,530 --> 00:21:03,690
I had done, because the motivations that
are represented by the terms,

303
00:21:03,690 --> 00:21:06,505
even if it's not a legal description of
licenses,

304
00:21:06,505 --> 00:21:10,158
the motivations that people assign when
they talk about free software

305
00:21:10,158 --> 00:21:13,053
versus when they talk about open source
software are very interesting,

306
00:21:13,053 --> 00:21:14,340
and very different.

307
00:21:14,340 --> 00:21:20,770
Has anybody here seen the Silicon Valley,
(LAUGHTER)

308
00:21:20,770 --> 00:21:24,972
Everyone who has seen the TV show Silicon
Valley was laughing very loudly.

309
00:21:24,972 --> 00:21:26,494
So not very many people in here.

310
00:21:26,494 --> 00:21:29,267
There's this TV show in the United States
called Silicon Valley.

311
00:21:29,267 --> 00:21:33,721
It's hilarious, it's about the startup
culture in Silicon Valley, in California.

312
00:21:33,721 --> 00:21:38,826
There's this company called Hooli, which
is like an analogue to Google, but it's

313
00:21:38,826 --> 00:21:41,896
an amalgamation of different companies.

314
00:21:41,896 --> 00:21:46,105
And in the first season of this show,
everywhere they go in Silicon Valley

315
00:21:46,105 --> 00:21:49,568
people are talking about "Making the world
better" through whatever

316
00:21:49,568 --> 00:21:51,576
start up idea they had.

317
00:21:51,576 --> 00:21:53,909
And there were posters everywhere: "Making
the world better through

318
00:21:53,909 --> 00:21:56,068
blah-di-blah-di-blah-di-blah-di-blah."

319
00:21:56,068 --> 00:21:59,294
When actually, they weren't trying to make
the world better, they were just using

320
00:21:59,294 --> 00:22:05,230
that language, and when I first saw that
on TV, my jaw dropped!

321
00:22:05,230 --> 00:22:08,127
I was like "Wait! That is our rhetoric!"

322
00:22:08,127 --> 00:22:10,846
And we've been using that in software
freedom to talk about making

323
00:22:10,846 --> 00:22:15,660
the world better and it's been completely
co-opted by companies who are also active

324
00:22:15,660 --> 00:22:20,400
in our space, who may also be, to some
extent, making the world better,

325
00:22:20,400 --> 00:22:25,486
but co-opting that message so strongly
that it's now a joke.

326
00:22:25,486 --> 00:22:32,196
It's such a joke that everywhere in this
show, for the entire season,

327
00:22:32,196 --> 00:22:37,281
it was somebody, you know: "We are raising
our series A, but the important thing

328
00:22:37,281 --> 00:22:43,073
is we're making the world better".

329
00:22:43,073 --> 00:22:48,200
It's interesting to take a hard look, and
it actually threw me through a loop

330
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,670
because I thought: Wait, am I trying to
make the world better through software

331
00:22:51,670 --> 00:22:54,268
freedom really, or have I completely lost
the plot?

332
00:22:54,268 --> 00:22:59,528
Because this is what I've been saying and
is that true?

333
00:22:59,528 --> 00:23:05,707
I think I've sort of come out the other
end of saying actually, this is residual

334
00:23:05,707 --> 00:23:10,066
from a very good job that the free
software community has been doing of

335
00:23:10,066 --> 00:23:13,719
making companies feel welcome, and making
them feel empowered and good about the

336
00:23:13,719 --> 00:23:16,456
choices they make by investing in free
software

337
00:23:16,456 --> 00:23:20,161
and there are a lot of good things that
are related to this that we can continue

338
00:23:20,161 --> 00:23:26,148
to increase, but we have to be very wary
of what our motivations are and who's

339
00:23:26,148 --> 00:23:30,413
selling us what, so that we know how we
can interact with them and what we should

340
00:23:30,413 --> 00:23:34,349
do if there's partnerships. And I can tell
you that undertaking GPL enforcement:

341
00:23:34,349 --> 00:23:37,062
Completely eye-opening to see what
companies do

342
00:23:37,062 --> 00:23:39,301
and how they really think about free
software.

343
00:23:39,301 --> 00:23:42,059
Because when you ask them to comply and
they're out of compliance,

344
00:23:42,059 --> 00:23:47,123
when you ask them to release their
proprietary kernel modules,

345
00:23:47,123 --> 00:23:54,288
the answers you get are not about making
the world better, I promise you [laughter]

346
00:23:54,288 --> 00:24:00,091
We need companies. We need to work with
them.

347
00:24:00,091 --> 00:24:05,025
Free software won't be relevant, we won't
win - I mean, win, whatever that means -

348
00:24:05,025 --> 00:24:09,753
we won't be relevant, we won't really make
the world better if we don't also have

349
00:24:09,753 --> 00:24:11,812
companies participating and contributing

350
00:24:11,812 --> 00:24:15,062
and companies have a lot to add, with
their own perspective.

351
00:24:15,062 --> 00:24:17,556
But we need to do it on our own terms.

352
00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:20,891
And we need to, as a community, take more
ownership of that

353
00:24:20,891 --> 00:24:27,347
and be more of a participant in that
culture.

354
00:24:27,347 --> 00:24:33,837
I'm naturally an optimist. By nature I
really think the best of people and

355
00:24:33,837 --> 00:24:37,224
I think the best of companies, I think the
best of the world.

356
00:24:37,224 --> 00:24:42,196
I've been accused of being a bit of a
Pollyanna at times

357
00:24:42,196 --> 00:24:47,820
however, as a lawyer, there's nothing
about being trained to be a lawyer except

358
00:24:47,820 --> 00:24:50,738
being trained to be a pessimist.

359
00:24:50,738 --> 00:24:53,505
And expect absolutely the worst of
everyone.

360
00:24:53,505 --> 00:24:56,685
And you have to expect that situations
will go bad.

361
00:24:56,685 --> 00:25:01,166
And you have to expect, that even though
you're working positively with a company

362
00:25:01,166 --> 00:25:06,206
today, that tomorrow that relationship
might go south.

363
00:25:06,206 --> 00:25:12,566
It might be because the people who are in
ownership or running the company have

364
00:25:12,566 --> 00:25:15,264
had incentives to change their goals,

365
00:25:15,264 --> 00:25:18,354
but it could also simply be that the
company has been acquired.

366
00:25:18,354 --> 00:25:23,428
Or that leadership has changed completely.
You can't expect that a company that is a

367
00:25:23,428 --> 00:25:27,017
good actor today will be a good actor
tomorrow.

368
00:25:27,017 --> 00:25:30,282
Again, that's not to say you should be
unreasonably suspicious but

369
00:25:30,282 --> 00:25:33,898
you need to plan for the worst case
scenarios no matter what

370
00:25:33,898 --> 00:25:37,709
and this is why we have lawyers, and this
is why we have legal regimes.

371
00:25:37,709 --> 00:25:42,206
What it's really about is power, and it's
about a power balance.

372
00:25:42,206 --> 00:25:48,610
One of the things that's really cool about
free and open source software is that we

373
00:25:48,610 --> 00:25:51,492
have some legal regimes that are sometimes
in place

374
00:25:51,492 --> 00:25:55,082
to help keep that balance of power.

375
00:25:55,082 --> 00:26:01,664
The GPL is a fundamental mechanism for
keeping that balance of power

376
00:26:01,664 --> 00:26:05,746
with companies, keeping that balance of
power with each other,

377
00:26:05,746 --> 00:26:09,276
and also keeping that balance of power in
check with developers and

378
00:26:09,276 --> 00:26:11,655
with society in general.

379
00:26:11,655 --> 00:26:18,787
This is a copyheart logo with the GPL.

380
00:26:18,787 --> 00:26:25,228
As you may have noticed, some people in
the last 5-10 years,

381
00:26:25,228 --> 00:26:28,751
lax permissive licensing has really taken
hold.

382
00:26:28,751 --> 00:26:33,946
I see some real vigorous nodding in the
audience.

383
00:26:33,946 --> 00:26:41,354
I think that a lot of that has to do with
not the original emphasis on

384
00:26:41,354 --> 00:26:44,553
lax permissive licensing.

385
00:26:44,553 --> 00:26:48,151
Not the original freedom emphasis from the
BSD communities -

386
00:26:48,151 --> 00:26:52,592
that cultural insistence on a pure kind of
freedom,

387
00:26:52,592 --> 00:26:59,643
where folks thought that the GPL was too
restrictive,

388
00:26:59,643 --> 00:27:03,916
and that the only way of having true
freedom was to have the ability

389
00:27:03,916 --> 00:27:05,796
to proprietarize it.

390
00:27:05,796 --> 00:27:09,976
As a concept of freedom, I think that has
actually shifted and it's not the reason

391
00:27:09,976 --> 00:27:15,004
why in the last 10 years lax permissive
licensing has become so popular.

392
00:27:15,004 --> 00:27:19,772
It's become so popular because companies
have been messaging so strongly that

393
00:27:19,772 --> 00:27:24,681
the only way you can get your software
adopted is by using a lax permissive

394
00:27:24,681 --> 00:27:26,389
license.

395
00:27:26,389 --> 00:27:29,230
And people have thought this so
wholeheartedly.

396
00:27:29,230 --> 00:27:34,465
It's so fascinating to me because we had
so much success with Linux

397
00:27:34,465 --> 00:27:40,883
under the GPL and the technology gets to a
place with the GPL that you wouldn't

398
00:27:40,883 --> 00:27:45,019
necessarily be able to get to otherwise.

399
00:27:45,019 --> 00:27:50,157
Linus Torvalds, for example has publicly
said the biggest contribution he made

400
00:27:50,157 --> 00:27:54,706
was not any technological contribution,
but instead the license choice

401
00:27:54,706 --> 00:27:57,526
behind the Linux kernel.

402
00:27:57,526 --> 00:28:03,813
We're really out of balance on this
because we've gone really strongly as a

403
00:28:03,813 --> 00:28:09,438
society towards non-copylefted software.

404
00:28:09,438 --> 00:28:14,840
This has upset the balance we can expect
from companies and I thought it was very

405
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:19,866
interesting - this is Martin Fink of
Hewlett Packard Enterprises

406
00:28:19,866 --> 00:28:23,375
at the last LinuxCon Europe - he gave a
talk and he said we need to

407
00:28:23,375 --> 00:28:28,919
"change the default" back to copyleft,
from permissive licensing.

408
00:28:28,919 --> 00:28:34,041
He gave a lot of really interesting
business minded reasons why

409
00:28:34,041 --> 00:28:36,643
it's good for business that this is the
case.

410
00:28:36,643 --> 00:28:40,818
He said that what happens if you choose
a non-copyleft license you have to

411
00:28:40,818 --> 00:28:44,850
introduce all of this governance and
infrastructure to make sure that companies

412
00:28:44,850 --> 00:28:48,357
play fairly with one another, and it's
expensive and it's artificial and

413
00:28:48,357 --> 00:28:50,874
it sometimes breaks down.

414
00:28:50,874 --> 00:28:56,804
From our perspective I think that from a
community project,

415
00:28:56,804 --> 00:29:01,108
from a community perspective, I think his
message of change the default has a whole

416
00:29:01,108 --> 00:29:04,564
additional power to it.

417
00:29:04,564 --> 00:29:08,605
And I thought that hearing somebody who's
coming from such a corporate perspective

418
00:29:08,605 --> 00:29:17,441
echo within a corporate construct what I
think we need to do more as a society

419
00:29:17,441 --> 00:29:20,637
and community was I think extremely
powerful.

420
00:29:20,637 --> 00:29:27,254
So if somebody tries to tell you that if
you're starting a new project

421
00:29:27,254 --> 00:29:31,021
that you will only find success and
popularity by using a permissive license

422
00:29:31,021 --> 00:29:32,584
it's simply not true.

423
00:29:32,584 --> 00:29:36,408
It's again, trading those long term versus
short term goals.

424
00:29:36,408 --> 00:29:40,437
Maybe you'll get some companies to adopt
it a little bit sooner, but down the road

425
00:29:40,437 --> 00:29:44,612
your project is potentially going to be
forked by another company and you won't

426
00:29:44,612 --> 00:29:47,556
be able to see any of those changes, and
you'll be completely locked out of the

427
00:29:47,556 --> 00:29:50,392
relevant part of software.

428
00:29:50,392 --> 00:29:55,452
Just something to think about.

429
00:29:55,452 --> 00:29:59,909
Without enforcement there is no copyleft,
effectively.

430
00:29:59,909 --> 00:30:02,311
You could choose a license until you're
blue in the face,

431
00:30:02,311 --> 00:30:05,653
but if there's not anyone who's going to
enforce it at the end of the day,

432
00:30:05,653 --> 00:30:07,751
you may as well have never made that
choice to begin with.

433
00:30:07,751 --> 00:30:11,597
Nobody is going to take you seriously if
there are no consequences to

434
00:30:11,597 --> 00:30:14,800
not following the rules.

435
00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:19,829
But having centralised power can really,
really frustrate that balance.

436
00:30:19,829 --> 00:30:29,048
So if it's, for example, a strong copyleft
license, if it's an AGPL or GPL program,

437
00:30:29,048 --> 00:30:32,229
but all the copyrights are owned by a
single company,

438
00:30:32,229 --> 00:30:35,207
then you have a power balance.

439
00:30:35,207 --> 00:30:38,776
The fact that the software is under a
copyleft license helps, but it doesn't get

440
00:30:38,776 --> 00:30:42,355
you all the way to that great balance.

441
00:30:42,355 --> 00:30:45,378
In many ways Debian really has the best
of both worlds,

442
00:30:45,378 --> 00:30:48,755
because with Debian, it's such a big
project, and there's copyrights that're so

443
00:30:48,755 --> 00:30:54,389
diversely held, no one could aggregate
those copyrights even if they tried.

444
00:30:54,389 --> 00:30:59,071
But we don't necessarily want to because
having a project that's held diversely

445
00:30:59,071 --> 00:31:01,861
is extremely powerful and helpful.

446
00:31:01,861 --> 00:31:06,826
It keeps these power balances much more
in check.

447
00:31:06,826 --> 00:31:13,351
At the same time, Debian has set up the
Copyright Aggregation Programme with

448
00:31:13,351 --> 00:31:17,679
Conservancy, so we will aggregate
copyrights with people who are interested

449
00:31:17,679 --> 00:31:22,336
in doing so, and that way we can help if
there is a violation, it's easier to

450
00:31:22,336 --> 00:31:26,917
pursue it because if you have a diversely
held project, and there's a violation,

451
00:31:26,917 --> 00:31:29,584
who's going to be the one to knock on the
companies door?

452
00:31:29,584 --> 00:31:33,337
They're not going to take any one
developer seriously enough,

453
00:31:33,337 --> 00:31:35,810
because it's such a small amount of code.

454
00:31:35,810 --> 00:31:38,773
So if we aggregate it together it means
that not only do we empower

455
00:31:38,773 --> 00:31:40,924
a single steward that's going to be
helpful,

456
00:31:40,924 --> 00:31:47,049
but it also enables someone with a single
voice to be able to be able to speak for

457
00:31:47,049 --> 00:31:50,489
enforcement, to make sure the right thing
is done for the project.

458
00:31:50,489 --> 00:31:57,964
To respect the diversely held copyrights
we now also take enforcement agreements

459
00:31:57,964 --> 00:32:01,522
so that people want to have their
copyrights enforced, we can do

460
00:32:01,522 --> 00:32:05,782
enforcement agreements in addition to
plain old copyright stewardship.

461
00:32:05,782 --> 00:32:08,233
In many ways, it's the best of both
worlds.

462
00:32:08,233 --> 00:32:11,705
I think that a lot of the things that
Debian has done has made it such a unique

463
00:32:11,705 --> 00:32:14,153
community.

464
00:32:14,153 --> 00:32:21,605
I think that the way that are so many
developers that are so independent

465
00:32:21,605 --> 00:32:24,620
and the way you come together and elect a
single DPL is an

466
00:32:24,620 --> 00:32:28,668
amazing and unusual thing and I think is
the reason why the Debian community has

467
00:32:28,668 --> 00:32:31,250
weathered the time so well,

468
00:32:31,250 --> 00:32:35,685
even though many companies are building
on Debian for their products,

469
00:32:35,685 --> 00:32:39,205
the Debian community stays so strong, it's
so independent, and it's so interesting

470
00:32:39,205 --> 00:32:41,766
and it's so unique.

471
00:32:41,766 --> 00:32:46,089
Another thing that I think we all need to
pay attention to that can help tip that

472
00:32:46,089 --> 00:32:48,344
balance is with our employment agreements.

473
00:32:48,344 --> 00:32:50,988
How many people here have an employment
agreement in place for what they're

474
00:32:50,988 --> 00:32:53,449
working on now?

475
00:32:53,449 --> 00:32:57,089
Wow, that's so low, it's only like a
quarter of the people in here.

476
00:32:57,089 --> 00:33:00,452
I bet many of you actually have employment
agreements that you don't realise

477
00:33:00,452 --> 00:33:07,810
that you have.

478
00:33:07,810 --> 00:33:15,168
So, I'll be a little bit faster on this to
say that when you take a new job at a

479
00:33:15,168 --> 00:33:18,311
company you will generally asked to sign
an employment agreement, and those

480
00:33:18,311 --> 00:33:21,020
employment agreements have been getting
stronger and stronger and stronger

481
00:33:21,020 --> 00:33:21,972
over time.

482
00:33:21,972 --> 00:33:24,059
And they often ask for the world.

483
00:33:24,059 --> 00:33:31,144
They basically tell you to agree that
everything that you do, not just within

484
00:33:31,144 --> 00:33:34,919
the context of your job, but at all during
the time you're employed is owned by your

485
00:33:34,919 --> 00:33:36,519
company.

486
00:33:36,519 --> 00:33:38,727
AUDIENCE: It's actually illegal in
Germany.

487
00:33:38,727 --> 00:33:42,207
KAREN: Yeah, so the different
jurisdictions, some have some checks and

488
00:33:42,207 --> 00:33:45,467
balances but the lines on that aren't
necessarily as clear as you think that

489
00:33:45,467 --> 00:33:49,753
they are, so it's all very, very
fascinating stuff, but in any case,

490
00:33:49,753 --> 00:33:53,218
making sure that you have an agreement
with your employer about working on free

491
00:33:53,218 --> 00:33:54,751
software is important.

492
00:33:54,751 --> 00:34:00,297
And making sure that you negotiate that
and ask for more is essential.

493
00:34:00,297 --> 00:34:05,703
We at Conservancy are working on a project
where we're publishing standard contract

494
00:34:05,703 --> 00:34:10,531
language so you can say "I would like
provisions 1, 3 and 5" when you negotiate

495
00:34:10,531 --> 00:34:14,128
with an employer, and they can say "oh,
we'd never take 5, but maybe we take

496
00:34:14,128 --> 00:34:17,261
1 and 3" — occasionally.

497
00:34:17,261 --> 00:34:20,527
And we're working with some companies so
that they'll review it and they all say

498
00:34:20,527 --> 00:34:25,739
"We may never take these provisions, we
may never let individuals hold their

499
00:34:25,739 --> 00:34:29,559
copyrights, but if we do the language
looks like this"

500
00:34:29,559 --> 00:34:33,747
Asking companies if you can hold your own
copyrights - some people do negotiate it.

501
00:34:33,747 --> 00:34:38,283
Some of those, I admit, are rock star
developers, but some are not.

502
00:34:38,283 --> 00:34:47,399
If we all ask for it, if a lot of the
talented developers that a company seeks

503
00:34:47,399 --> 00:34:50,805
to hire ask to keep their copyrights,

504
00:34:50,805 --> 00:34:55,145
or asks for the freedom to work on free
and open source software, that's outside

505
00:34:55,145 --> 00:34:59,659
of their job, if we all ask for it, then
some companies will start to bend,

506
00:34:59,659 --> 00:35:02,856
because they'll see it as a feature for
recruiting talent.

507
00:35:02,856 --> 00:35:06,457
And together we can make a huge difference
in the culture of this space and the

508
00:35:06,457 --> 00:35:08,114
bargaining power.

509
00:35:08,114 --> 00:35:11,266
Some people are advocating for unionised
free software development,

510
00:35:11,266 --> 00:35:13,840
which is a very interesting notion,

511
00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:23,100
but I think that from a plain old normal
way, It think it would be very interesting

512
00:35:23,100 --> 00:35:28,665
if we all started to ask about keeping our
own copyrights and other provisions.

513
00:35:28,665 --> 00:35:32,422
So we're working to enable people to
do that.

514
00:35:32,422 --> 00:35:35,256
Support the charitable non-profits.

515
00:35:35,256 --> 00:35:38,840
Think about — that’s very self serving,
I know people are laughing.

516
00:35:38,840 --> 00:35:42,938
Or Keith is laughing…

517
00:35:42,938 --> 00:35:49,101
It's not just the Conservancys, it's the
SPIs, right?

518
00:35:49,101 --> 00:35:54,254
It's all — now Bdale is nodding.
(LAUGHTER)

519
00:35:54,254 --> 00:35:58,654
It's supporting the charitable structures
around free and open source software

520
00:35:58,654 --> 00:36:03,286
because they are what are going to enable
us to keep the interests of the community

521
00:36:03,286 --> 00:36:06,489
and the interest of society at heart.

522
00:36:06,489 --> 00:36:10,945
The Free Software Foundation, SPI,
Conservancy, we're organisations that have

523
00:36:10,945 --> 00:36:16,073
a mission to support free and open source
software, for freedom.

524
00:36:16,073 --> 00:36:18,906
And so keeping the charitable
organisations strong

525
00:36:18,906 --> 00:36:26,794
is really essential and Conservancy
in the last year shifted it's business

526
00:36:26,794 --> 00:36:31,229
model so we're now individually funded
primarily rather than company funded

527
00:36:31,229 --> 00:36:34,874
and we've found that it's enabled us to be
focused more on programmes that are

528
00:36:34,874 --> 00:36:37,644
important to community and important to
society.

529
00:36:37,644 --> 00:36:41,193
If we were funded by companies, if we were
a trade association, we could never do

530
00:36:41,193 --> 00:36:42,995
that in the same way.

531
00:36:42,995 --> 00:36:46,357
It's not that trade associations don't do
good work, and it's not that they

532
00:36:46,357 --> 00:36:49,087
can't also be doing things in the public
good,

533
00:36:49,087 --> 00:36:51,954
it's just it's not their focus.

534
00:36:51,954 --> 00:36:57,038
So I would say, really, you're all so
awesome for being at DebConf and for being

535
00:36:57,038 --> 00:36:59,237
involved in the Debian community.

536
00:36:59,237 --> 00:37:04,234
Debian is so unique and so focused on
freedoms, so stay focused on freedom.

537
00:37:04,234 --> 00:37:08,728
It's the most amazing thing and together,
we can make the world better

538
00:37:08,728 --> 00:37:13,012
and not in an ironic, hilarious way.

539
00:37:13,012 --> 00:37:18,055
I'm happy to announce that due to a
generous donation by an anonymous

540
00:37:18,055 --> 00:37:24,717
donor, anyone at DebConf who signs up as a
Conservancy supporter will be matched.

541
00:37:24,717 --> 00:37:28,104
So it's a really good time if you're — I
don't want to give a sales pitch but —

542
00:37:28,104 --> 00:37:34,513
(LAUGHTER) but it's a good time, because
someone who's here, who cares passionately

543
00:37:34,513 --> 00:37:38,833
about software freedom is going to match
that donation.

544
00:37:38,833 --> 00:37:43,369
Anyway, so does anyone have any questions?
Do we have time for questions?

545
00:37:43,369 --> 00:37:46,356
MICHAEL: Thanks Karen for that talk.
KAREN: Thank you very much.

546
00:37:46,356 --> 00:37:50,716
(APPLAUSE)

547
00:37:50,716 --> 00:37:56,881
MICHAEL: We started a bit late so we have
time for a few questions.

548
00:38:00,422 --> 00:38:16,841
GUNNAR: My question is more pulled by
what Aba said. You mentioned a lot of work

549
00:38:16,841 --> 00:38:25,625
from the Software Freedom Conservancy and
benefits regarding the work you are doing

550
00:38:25,625 --> 00:38:36,590
in a community such as ours but do you
work with similar groups, not focused

551
00:38:36,590 --> 00:38:43,086
in the US? Because I mean the rules are
different everywhere, and I'm sure it will

552
00:38:43,086 --> 00:38:47,560
be very hard for you personally to
litigate here, or whatever.

553
00:38:47,560 --> 00:38:51,749
KAREN: Yes, I'm a US lawyer admitted to
practice in the state of New York, not

554
00:38:51,749 --> 00:38:53,807
anywhere else.

555
00:38:53,807 --> 00:38:57,757
This is not legal advice and I am not your
lawyer. (LAUGHTER)

556
00:38:57,757 --> 00:39:01,197
However, free software is global.

557
00:39:01,197 --> 00:39:07,644
You can't simply have a US focus and work
in free software, so we're focused on a

558
00:39:07,644 --> 00:39:11,122
lot of different jurisdictions. Obviously,
we're focused in places that a lot of us

559
00:39:11,122 --> 00:39:20,195
are, so our programmes where we have
enforcement agreements and assignment

560
00:39:20,195 --> 00:39:25,014
agreements like for the Linux kernel or
Debian, we obviously work with lawyers

561
00:39:25,014 --> 00:39:31,238
in those places too, so we have a
European agreement for assignment now.

562
00:39:31,238 --> 00:39:36,009
We're a US entity, so that it means that
to the extent that we're taking copyright

563
00:39:36,009 --> 00:39:40,174
from developers, we're going to hold them
in the US because we are in the US.

564
00:39:40,174 --> 00:39:48,284
But we have function abroad, we function
everywhere and we, for example, don't have

565
00:39:48,284 --> 00:39:52,574
any South African lawyers we've been
working with, but whenever there's a place

566
00:39:52,574 --> 00:39:56,840
for someone who's very interested in, and
there's enough of an interest that it

567
00:39:56,840 --> 00:40:01,566
would be worth the expenditure, we look to
experts from those places.

568
00:40:01,566 --> 00:40:06,337
I think that you simply can't just think
about the US.

569
00:40:06,337 --> 00:40:13,160
However, it's interesting that for better
or for worse, a lot of the countries have

570
00:40:13,160 --> 00:40:18,115
followed the US in a lot of policy and
often that's for worse.

571
00:40:18,115 --> 00:40:22,203
In many places the patent regimes have
followed the US.

572
00:40:22,203 --> 00:40:26,463
I think that a lot of the charitable
structures as well.

573
00:40:26,463 --> 00:40:33,288
So for example the Food and Drug
Administration's review in the US over my

574
00:40:33,288 --> 00:40:36,806
medical device - I used to when I gave a
talk about medical devices, I would do a

575
00:40:36,806 --> 00:40:40,950
lot of research into the local place's
Food and Drug Administration and review

576
00:40:40,950 --> 00:40:44,741
processes, but every place I went to it
was the same.

577
00:40:44,741 --> 00:40:50,531
They didn't review the software. So most
of the big ideological issues are the same

578
00:40:50,531 --> 00:40:54,195
from place to place, and for details we
work with partners.

579
00:40:55,443 --> 00:41:07,212
PHIL: When you were talking about
retaining copyright, a company I was

580
00:41:07,212 --> 00:41:14,382
working for was doing some work for a
phone manufacturer in in 2000, and the

581
00:41:14,382 --> 00:41:20,335
idea of retaining copyright really wasn't
happening. So, as a fallback position we

582
00:41:20,335 --> 00:41:25,498
suggested to them that if we were
modifying existing projects that were

583
00:41:25,498 --> 00:41:30,482
under copyleft licences, obviously we
would have to comply with those licences

584
00:41:30,482 --> 00:41:36,779
and that we'd like to retain the copyright
in that instance, and they went for that

585
00:41:36,779 --> 00:41:41,642
and then once you've got an agreement like
that, it's not so difficult to persuade

586
00:41:41,642 --> 00:41:45,263
someone to upload a project that hasn't
got very much in it, under a license,

587
00:41:45,263 --> 00:41:47,995
and then fork it immediately. (LAUGHTER)

588
00:41:47,995 --> 00:41:52,349
KAREN: Early is really important. Making
these decisions early is so essential.

589
00:41:52,349 --> 00:41:55,518
You can never turn back the clock.

590
00:41:55,518 --> 00:42:00,460
You'll ever have as much power as the day
a company is trying to recruit you.

591
00:42:00,460 --> 00:42:04,012
Once they have decided to hire you, before
they have actually entered into an

592
00:42:04,012 --> 00:42:07,324
agreement with you, before you've come on
staff, they never want to hire you as much

593
00:42:07,324 --> 00:42:10,022
as in that moment, because they've gone
through the whole search,

594
00:42:10,022 --> 00:42:13,793
they've decided you're the one for them,
the process is over,

595
00:42:13,793 --> 00:42:16,462
they just want to get the paper work done.
And that's the time.

596
00:42:16,462 --> 00:42:19,377
And even though you may think that it'll
blow up the deal, it won't.

597
00:42:19,377 --> 00:42:21,681
You can always blame me. You can say:

598
00:42:21,681 --> 00:42:27,204
"A lawyer told me I need to do these
things", and then they'll say:

599
00:42:27,204 --> 00:42:30,683
"Well, we never do that", and you can
gauge the interest.

600
00:42:30,683 --> 00:42:37,107
If you're nice about it and not
adversarial about it, then it's fine.

601
00:42:38,813 --> 00:42:48,904
[Question via IRC from Mexico]: Karen,
what do you think about the latest Oracle

602
00:42:48,904 --> 00:42:53,177
and Google law fight about Java and the
GPL? (LAUGHTER)

603
00:42:53,177 --> 00:42:57,638
KAREN: I'm recording an oggcast Free as
in Freedom about the whole issue, it would

604
00:42:57,638 --> 00:43:02,399
take a long time to discuss it, so more to
come on that.

605
00:43:02,399 --> 00:43:05,501
MICHAEL: Any more questions?

606
00:43:06,423 --> 00:43:11,874
STEVE: Echoing the thing about employment
agreements, my experience in the UK,

607
00:43:11,874 --> 00:43:16,858
I'm sure it's similar elsewhere is
companies will just try things on.

608
00:43:16,858 --> 00:43:20,909
There'll be a whole load of things in most
employment agreements that are strictly

609
00:43:20,909 --> 00:43:25,669
not enforceable and probably illegal in
many jurisdictions, but they'll put them

610
00:43:25,669 --> 00:43:30,200
in anyway. It's just a case of talking
through it — they're negotiations, they're

611
00:43:30,200 --> 00:43:37,591
not fixed terms, every employment contract
is different, it's entirely up to you to

612
00:43:37,591 --> 00:43:43,768
talk about it. I work for a company that
self identifies as an IP company, so I

613
00:43:43,768 --> 00:43:48,782
just scribbled out the thing that says
they own everything I do, and it caused

614
00:43:48,782 --> 00:43:51,374
no hassle. It's no problem.

615
00:43:51,374 --> 00:43:55,879
KAREN: Yeah, people think that because
they're given a contract and it looks very

616
00:43:55,879 --> 00:44:01,078
official that it's fixed and there's no
chance to edit it, but it's almost never

617
00:44:01,078 --> 00:44:06,561
true. There are some companies who would
rather walk away from employing you than

618
00:44:06,561 --> 00:44:12,034
editing their employment agreement, but
they're the exception rather than the rule.

619
00:44:12,034 --> 00:44:16,650
Because a lot of companies will negotiate
it, there's a lot of room there and if it

620
00:44:16,650 --> 00:44:21,887
becomes more standard, if more developers
ask, more employees ask for edits to the

621
00:44:21,887 --> 00:44:25,944
employment contract, and especially if
they all ask for it in the same way,

622
00:44:25,944 --> 00:44:32,365
then it's generally true in contract
negotiations that when you negotiate with

623
00:44:32,365 --> 00:44:36,159
someone you ask for way more than you want
because you want to be able to come down.

624
00:44:36,159 --> 00:44:40,986
So often it's built in to these contracts
provisions that companies know they're

625
00:44:40,986 --> 00:44:45,510
willing to move from, and if you ask them
to move on something else they'll say:

626
00:44:45,510 --> 00:44:49,879
"Well, we can't move on that, but we have
this other provision we could give you"

627
00:44:49,879 --> 00:44:54,716
And so, the chances are you're not getting
the best deal that's already available

628
00:44:54,716 --> 00:44:57,303
to you if you haven't asked.

629
00:44:57,303 --> 00:45:01,168
MICHAEL: I think we should move on now as
we're running out of time.

630
00:45:01,168 --> 00:45:04,868
Karen will be around at DebConf until
Thursday I think, so talk to her if you

631
00:45:04,868 --> 00:45:12,510
have any more questions or comments.

632
00:45:12,510 --> 00:45:17,562
(APPLAUSE)