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Let's talk about GNU/Hurd
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For us it's a bit all about freedom 0,
that is, the ability to use software,
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basically, for any purpose.
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And for us, the important thing is that
you shouldn't have to ask
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the system administrator for things.
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You should be allowed to do
whatever you want.
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So for instance, why is fdisk, mke2fs,
etc. hidden in /sbin?
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I want to be able to build disk images,
play with them, mount them, etc.
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So just be able to work with the kind of
disk and network access I have,
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and do whatever I want with this.
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It's about freedom to innovate as well, if
I want to use an experimental filesystem,
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just play with, without being afraid of
crashing the machine.
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You should be able to just
run the file system
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and let the system administrator be happy
with this because it's safe to do this.
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And also, it's a way to provide freedom
from misbehaving programs
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like a driver which doesn't work so well,
some things like this.
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Just to give an idea, in GNU/Hurd,
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you have the kernel which does basically
almost nothing,
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just managing tasks, the memory and
inter-process communications,
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and then you have a lot of daemons
doing the actual stuff,
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so the pfinet is the TCP/IP stack,
and ext2fs does the filesystem thing.
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And then, you have the user,
just running programs.
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And these tools just, actually just talk
to the daemons through the microkernel,
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the microkernel doesn't do much, it just
passes requests along.
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For instance, if a server crashes,
then that's fine.
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For instance a driver crashes,
or just hangs,
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you just can kill and then pfinet
will re-open a new instance of the driver
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and it will just work, thanks to TCP just
continuing to ping the other computer.
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So it's just an error, it's not something
of the death.
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At some point on my desktop, I could
switch off the light,
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and then that would crash my laptop.
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Because switching off the light would
reboot my hard disk, USB hard disk,
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and then the kernel of the laptop
wouldn't like this.
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This is not something which is
supposed to happen.
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So, with a server approach, this is
completely fixed.
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It's also easier to debug, it's really
nice to be able to gdb a TCP/IP stack,
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when there is something happening in there,
just run gdb, you can gprof it, etc.
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You can also dare more crazy things.
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For instance, the Linux console doesn't
support much, because we don't want to put
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too much complex code in there.
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On GNU/Hurd the console actually supports
things like Chinese,
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double-width support, etc.
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which is not supported
by the Linux console,
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and that's right because you don't want
to put too crazy stuff.
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Here since it's just a userland program,
then you're fine,
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and so we do have Chinese support in,
actually, textmode in the Debian Installer.
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Just to show an example, so here I have
ftpfs which uses the TCP/IP stack
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to actually mount a remote directory,
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and then I can use isofs to mount an ISO
image which is inside that FTP server.
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And then I can just let cp copy a file
from the ISO image which is on the server.
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So this translates that way, so I've done
this command a long time ago,
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just to say that "ftp:" in my home
directory is whatever FTP,
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and then I can take a "~/ftp:/etc." URL
and give that to isofs
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and then mount that on my "mnt",
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and then I can just browse inside the ISO
image, without having to download
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the whole ISO image, without having to ask
root for this kind of things, etc.
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And I can also permanently store this
in ext2fs.
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So just to give an example, I have a
translator on my signature files,
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which just calls fortune, so when I
"cat .signature" [demo],
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I get one signature or another, because
each time I open the file,
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it's a new instance of fortune which is
started.
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You can see that, indeed, this is stored
in my signature file.
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So this is fun!
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Another example: as a user, I can start
my own TCP/IP stack,
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tell it to use a virtual network
interface,
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and then put the TCP/IP service on some
node in my home,
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and then I can run openvpn to actually
push and pull packets
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from that virtual interface, and build a
VPN with somewhere else.
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And then I can remap the system, what is
supposed to be the system TCP/IP stack
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into my own socket,
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and then I get a new shell for which the
system TCP/IP stack is actually
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my own TCP/IP stack.
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So I can decide which program actually
uses this TCP/IP stack,
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and just do my own VPN without having to
ask anything to the administrator.
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But also, for instance it happens quite
often that you have a binary,
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maybe not sh, but like, python or perl
or whatever,
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you have a program which wants /bin/sh
to be actually bash or whatever,
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so I want to change this, so I can remap
this, so for instance [demo]
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if I look at sh, so as usual,
oh it's green,
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but you can see here that it's dash,
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and if I remap /bin/sh into /bin/bash, for
instance, I get a new shell where actually,
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sh is not the same, so it's remapped into
/bin/bash,
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and so it's actually bash which actually
shows up here.
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So I do really choose how I work, what my
environment looks like.
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And for instance, I can remap the whole
/bin directory into my own directory,
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where I expose /bin, but also
other things,
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so that programs which have /bin/something
hardcoded into them,
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I can use them without having to ask the
administrator to install stuff inside /bin.
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So it's kind of interesting, a bit like
stow, Nix, Guix, but done in a nice way.
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How does it work? Well it's actually
relatively simple in the principle,
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it's simply that libc doesn't talk with
the kernel or whatever,
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it always uses RPCs, so to ask nicely
about opening files etc.,
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and so it's really natural in GNU/Hurd
that you can redirect things.
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So for instance, the remap translator here
is like, maybe,
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200-300 lines
[Note of transcriptor: 150 actually],
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because it's just a matter of
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"you open a file, OK, I look at the file
path, is it something I want to translate?
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Yes, I translate that, and then I open
the real file,
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and give the new handle to the program",
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and that's all, so it's extremely simple.
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So everything in GNU/Hurd is an RPC and
so it is interposable,
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and then translators get exposed in the
filesystem, we have seen the TCP/IP stack,
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it's just a path inside the filesystem.
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And then the user can decide whatever it
wants to do to interpose whatever.
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So, for instance fakeroot, in Linux,
is quite big,
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because it has to interpose libc symbols,
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and every time libc invents something new,
then it breaks in fakeroot
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because fakeroot has to know about this
new symbol, etc. and interpose them,
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either through ptrace or ld or whatever.
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In GNU/Hurd, fakeroot is, like,
a thousand lines long,
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because it just implements a few basic
things,
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and then everything just works, which just
interpose basic authentication hooks,
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and libc uses them all the time.
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So it's fully virtualizable, and with
a really fine grain interface,
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because you can precisely decide
which RPCs are interposed,
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or which files in the filesystem
are interposed.
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And then you can just use your home
directory, the TCP/IP stack,
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and pile stuff over it, the way you want.
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Just to give a crazy example, we have
a lot of stuff,
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I actually have an ISO image inside a
partitioned disk image on FTP over a VPN.
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And this is not so crazy.
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Maybe the ISO image inside the partitioned
disk, the ISO image is a bit too much,
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but one file inside the partitioned disk
image on FTP over VPN is not so crazy,
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because maybe you are on a hostile
network, so you have to use a VPN,
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and then you want to access a file
you know is inside a disk image,
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I don't know, a known disk image which is
provided on a public FTP server,
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and you don't want to download the whole
image just to get, I don't know,
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the README file or something like this.
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So it's not so crazy, and it just
works nicely.
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So a bit more Debian stuff.
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Porting packages to Hurd is quite easy
in principle,
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because it's just a POSIX system, there is
a lot more than just POSIX,
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but it provides a POSIX interface.
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So portable programs should be
really fine.
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Just for fun, some dumb issues, so for
instance some programs think that
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if it's not Linux or BSD, then they can
include windows.h...
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Why not...
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If the system has mach.h, that must be
MacOS,
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because MacOS is the only system in the
world that uses Mach, I don't know why...
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Some people try to grep cpuinfo, which
doesn't exist on GNU/Hurd yet,
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and so they basically just run "make -j"
which just explodes the system,
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I mean even on a Linux system it's just
the same, unless it's a small program,
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but with a lot of C++ files it's horrible.
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Some people include limits.h from linux/
instead of just the standard one, well...
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A problematic thing is people who
hardcoded errno values;
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the values of errno are not standardized,
so you shouldn't hardcode them, like,
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in testsuite results or things like this.
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And quite often in configure it's
hardcoded that
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only Linux knows -lpthread or -ldl, etc.
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so quite often programs are not
generic enough,
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and that's just easy to fix, but we have
more and more of these.
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So we have a porter page developing
a bit more about these.
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I wanted to talk a bit more about
PATH_MAX, it is not defined on GNU/Hurd,
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for very good reasons, and it is allowed
by POSIX not to define it,
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just to say that there is no limitation on
the PATH_MAX value,
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we don't have a limit on the size of
the paths.
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And indeed it has a fragile semantic, it
has never meant
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"a reasonable size for an array of
characters to store a path".
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On Linux it's 4000, that's a whole page,
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that's a whole TLB entry for
just one file name.
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It's extremely costly, most people don't
have so long paths,
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and so it's really a pity to use so much
memory, because it's always a whole page
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because it will always be aligned
on 4k etc.
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So, well, that's a waste for one.
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And paths can actually be longer,
there is no strict limitation,
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you can mkdir something, cd into that
mkdir again, cd, etc.,
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you can do that as much as you want,
there is no limitation on this,
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it's just that when you call
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"get current working directory",
you won't get it completely.
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And actually, some programs misbehave
in that case,
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because they won't see these files,
they will be quite actually hidden,
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or protected, or I don't know,
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you can not remove them just giving
the path, you have to cd, cd, cd, cd,
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and then you can access the file.
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And for no reason, actually, because Linux
inside doesn't have
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such limitation, actually.
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And also, it's stupid, but POSIX didn't
really said precisely whether
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the final \0 actually is included in
PATH_MAX or not,
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so people would allocate PATH_MAX+1,
or maybe not.
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So we have a lot of code which doesn't,
maybe, actually work,
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but nobody tests it, actually, because
they would never have so long paths.
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So I'm a bit afraid of all these codes
using PATH_MAX.
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You should be afraid as well.
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Just to give an overview of the state.
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We have a i386 support, we have a 64bit
support which has started,
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we have the kernel booting,
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and now it's mostly translating between
32 and 64 in our RPCs.
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We have drivers for network boards as a
userland translator, using the DDE layer.
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We have disk, we have a Xen port.
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We have a preliminary sound support
which was announced today, using Rump,
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the Rump kernel.
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We don't have USB yet.
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It is quite stable, I haven't reinstalled
my boxes for, like, a decade,
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I don't remember when I installed them,
actually.
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And then the buildd machines just keep
building packages for weeks
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without a problem.
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We have 81% of the archive.
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We have the native Debian Installer which
is really working great.
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Recent work is, like, interesting thing is,
a distributed mtab translator
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to provide /proc/mounts in a hurdish way.
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We have quite a few optimizations which
went in to improve the performance.
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We had releases quite some time ago,
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I really recommend to have a look at this
one, it's fun.
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We've some Wheezy and Jessie snapshots,
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they are not official, but for us it's
really an official thing.
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An important thing I wanted to discuss
this week is the removal from ftp-master.
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This is due since quite a few years now,
honestly,
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it's really not useful to mirror the hurd
packages over the whole world,
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because there are not even as many users
as the number of mirrors.
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So OK, that's fine for just the removal
from the main archive in terms of mirroring.
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But then we have a lot of consequences.
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For instance, buildd.debian.org is really
an important thing,
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because that is where the release team
schedules transitions,
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and loosing this, for us, would be really
tedious work,
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because I've been there, doing, actually,
the transition work,
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the same work as the release team, and
it's really painful to do this again.
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So we would really like to have a solution
for this.
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00:17:26,881 --> 00:17:31,001
Maybe get that fed from debian-ports and,
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00:17:31,001 --> 00:17:35,621
then that's fine, we can be on
debian-ports, as long as at least
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there is some synchronization between
something.
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00:17:38,921 --> 00:17:43,881
And also, getting exposed on the buildd
package status page,
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so that people are aware that there is
some port which is failing,
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00:17:48,821 --> 00:17:52,360
and maybe they are keen on spending some
time on it, maybe not,
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but at least get them know about it.
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00:17:58,281 --> 00:18:03,101
And also, a corner thing, when we have
a version upgrade, like gcc or perl,
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the release team asks
"OK, we'll have to upgrade the buildds",
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and at the moment they don't even have
an account on them,
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00:18:12,121 --> 00:18:15,481
so they can not check whether the version
is good or not.
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Maybe we should just provide an account,
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we'd thus need to know who we need to give
an account to.
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Basically, my idea would be
"OK, that's fine not being on ftp-master".
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The thing is we still want to have most of
the support of Debian,
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to make our life less a burden,
as much as possible,
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00:18:41,702 --> 00:18:44,981
without any extra load on
the release team, etc.
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We do understand well that we don't want
to put work on people's hand.
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00:18:50,821 --> 00:18:56,081
But we would like to still get some benefit
and probably there are solutions for this.
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00:18:56,921 --> 00:19:04,540
And conversely, all of this, I mean, not
putting more work on us Hurd porters,
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would actually be the same solutions that
existing ports on debian-ports
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would be really happy to have, to improve
their life, to have less work to do,
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00:19:17,041 --> 00:19:20,541
than what they currently have,
it's really a problem.
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00:19:21,141 --> 00:19:25,981
So maybe we want to think about a real
status for Second Class Citizens,
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like Hurd, but also the sparc, hppa, etc.
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00:19:30,380 --> 00:19:36,081
Maybe we want to have some BoF at some time,
so we can gather and discuss about this.
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00:19:38,481 --> 00:19:45,741
Future work, the most interesting thing is
probably using the Rump drivers,
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00:19:45,741 --> 00:19:50,640
because at the moment we use DDE but
it's not really going forward.
246
00:19:51,041 --> 00:19:55,701
We thought it would be a way to get newer
drivers, Linux drivers,
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00:19:55,701 --> 00:20:00,061
without extra efforts, but it doesn't
actually happen at the moment,
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00:20:00,061 --> 00:20:06,041
while Rump does go forward, we see work
being done with Xen etc.
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So this is probably a long-term solution.
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00:20:10,921 --> 00:20:13,941
Maybe we'll have another distribution
through Guix.
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00:20:15,141 --> 00:20:18,401
This is progressing, we are quite far from
doing this,
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00:20:18,401 --> 00:20:23,860
so for now Debian is really the only Hurd
distribution that we have, so we'll see.
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00:20:24,841 --> 00:20:32,001
And of course, just come and have fun with
your own pet project, just join, thanks!
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[Applause]
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00:20:39,641 --> 00:20:42,401
[Michael Banck] Any quick questions before
we run to lunch?
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00:20:53,321 --> 00:20:54,841
[Steve Chamberlain] Hello, I just wondered
257
00:20:55,281 --> 00:21:00,961
if you're using Hurd on that laptop
for the presentation?
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00:21:01,261 --> 00:21:02,581
[Samuel Thibault] Yeah, yeah,
this is running Hurd, yes.
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00:21:02,701 --> 00:21:04,662
[SC] So it's quite, like, usable everyday?
260
00:21:05,201 --> 00:21:07,921
[ST] Well, not everyday because
without USB,
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00:21:07,921 --> 00:21:12,101
you can not mount a USB stick for instance,
so that's quite inconvenient,
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00:21:12,101 --> 00:21:15,421
but yeah, I could probably use it everyday.
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00:21:15,960 --> 00:21:20,040
I don't, I mean, for work,
I can not afford this, but yeah.
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00:21:20,241 --> 00:21:23,481
Also, we don't have wireless drivers
at the moment.
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00:21:23,761 --> 00:21:26,481
We hope that with the Rump drivers
we would get this.
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00:21:26,801 --> 00:21:28,741
So, yes.
267
00:21:29,041 --> 00:21:30,841
Some people do use it everyday.
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00:21:31,121 --> 00:21:32,281
Not me.
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00:21:33,120 --> 00:21:36,101
[SC] But those would be the major thing
missing for more people
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00:21:36,101 --> 00:21:37,361
to be able to use it.
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OK, thanks.
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00:21:40,280 --> 00:21:48,581
[MB] Any more questions? We're run out of
questions, then thanks again. Thanks.
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[Applause]