1 00:00:02,320 --> 00:00:03,040 Hi 2 00:00:04,730 --> 00:00:07,290 thanks to be here and 3 00:00:07,290 --> 00:00:10,460 I hope some of you will find it interesting but 4 00:00:10,460 --> 00:00:13,050 most of you already 5 00:00:13,050 --> 00:00:14,400 know it, probably 6 00:00:14,400 --> 00:00:16,350 So, that's a talk about 7 00:00:16,350 --> 00:00:19,370 bug triaging and closing. 8 00:00:19,530 --> 00:00:23,120 I'm Solveig, here are my contact info. 9 00:00:27,240 --> 00:00:29,540 I use free software since 10 00:00:29,600 --> 00:00:32,250 ten years and 11 00:00:33,300 --> 00:00:35,580 I focus especially on 12 00:00:35,580 --> 00:00:37,580 privacy issues 13 00:00:39,980 --> 00:00:42,080 I contribute to Tails 14 00:00:42,270 --> 00:00:44,580 which is a Debian derivative 15 00:00:45,770 --> 00:00:47,370 and 16 00:00:48,580 --> 00:00:52,540 I went to last DebConf and enjoyed it very much 17 00:00:52,540 --> 00:00:54,540 and started triaging bugs 18 00:00:54,540 --> 00:00:56,200 because I'm no 19 00:00:56,570 --> 00:00:58,200 coder, but 20 00:00:58,200 --> 00:01:00,890 there are many ways to contribute to Debian 21 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:05,110 So, bug triaging 22 00:01:05,150 --> 00:01:06,590 It's 23 00:01:07,140 --> 00:01:11,210 a very small task but it helps Debian as a whole 24 00:01:12,080 --> 00:01:13,910 So, on the 25 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,030 So, that's where you can see 26 00:01:20,110 --> 00:01:24,090 the Debian bug tracking system, where, here 27 00:01:25,110 --> 00:01:29,740 you can enter a bug number and search for it by number 28 00:01:32,830 --> 00:01:37,440 Lots of maintainers have lots of work and don't 29 00:01:37,750 --> 00:01:40,040 deal with all their bug reports 30 00:01:41,740 --> 00:01:45,270 Some high popularity 31 00:01:46,140 --> 00:01:47,430 packages 32 00:01:47,430 --> 00:01:49,740 get a lot of bug reports 33 00:01:50,340 --> 00:01:52,330 like the kernel, or 34 00:01:52,330 --> 00:01:53,740 firefox (iceweasel) 35 00:01:54,450 --> 00:01:55,670 and 36 00:01:56,270 --> 00:01:57,840 sometimes 37 00:01:57,840 --> 00:02:02,560 maintainers, for any reason, don't have time to deal with all their bug reports 38 00:02:02,890 --> 00:02:05,870 So, some of them just 39 00:02:05,870 --> 00:02:09,430 hang out in the bug tracking system without 40 00:02:11,310 --> 00:02:13,720 being dealt with 41 00:02:15,150 --> 00:02:16,130 So, 42 00:02:16,130 --> 00:02:18,130 when you 43 00:02:18,130 --> 00:02:20,130 triage them, 44 00:02:20,130 --> 00:02:23,800 you make sure that they are in a state where 45 00:02:24,340 --> 00:02:26,500 something can be done with them 46 00:02:27,410 --> 00:02:29,130 It's 47 00:02:30,990 --> 00:02:34,500 The maintainers are sure they have up to date 48 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,070 bug reports, so that they 49 00:02:37,990 --> 00:02:39,740 see better what they can do 50 00:02:39,930 --> 00:02:41,160 and 51 00:02:41,680 --> 00:02:44,500 the users searching for 52 00:02:44,500 --> 00:02:46,500 bugs similar to theirs 53 00:02:46,500 --> 00:02:48,190 can find them 54 00:02:48,970 --> 00:02:52,130 and so the maintainers have more time to 55 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:56,320 fix actually those that they can fix 56 00:02:58,500 --> 00:02:59,330 and 57 00:02:59,620 --> 00:03:02,370 you want to triage bugs 58 00:03:02,370 --> 00:03:03,890 because it's easy 59 00:03:03,890 --> 00:03:04,990 you don't need to code 60 00:03:04,990 --> 00:03:08,340 you don't need to do system administration 61 00:03:08,800 --> 00:03:10,990 you just need to know how to read 62 00:03:10,990 --> 00:03:12,460 and write e-mails 63 00:03:12,800 --> 00:03:14,460 [laughter] 64 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:18,040 It's rewarding, because 65 00:03:18,040 --> 00:03:19,770 maintainers, most of them, 66 00:03:19,770 --> 00:03:21,770 are really happy when you help them 67 00:03:24,570 --> 00:03:27,280 Submitters also 68 00:03:28,020 --> 00:03:31,190 are glad to be pinged about their bugs, so 69 00:03:32,000 --> 00:03:35,190 you got lots of nice feedback 70 00:03:36,050 --> 00:03:37,420 and it's fun 71 00:03:37,420 --> 00:03:39,420 you read about 72 00:03:39,420 --> 00:03:42,940 software you have no idea it did exist 73 00:03:43,360 --> 00:03:45,610 you don't get, 74 00:03:45,610 --> 00:03:48,300 even after reading, what they're supposed to do 75 00:03:48,300 --> 00:03:51,030 and you really don't undersand while somebody 76 00:03:51,230 --> 00:03:52,030 coded them 77 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:53,110 That's 78 00:03:54,890 --> 00:03:56,270 crazy, that's 79 00:03:56,270 --> 00:03:58,270 [laughter] 80 00:03:58,610 --> 00:04:01,490 and, of course, it saves kittens 81 00:04:03,580 --> 00:04:09,240 [applause] 82 00:04:10,130 --> 00:04:12,540 There are many different 83 00:04:12,540 --> 00:04:14,540 operations you can perform 84 00:04:14,540 --> 00:04:16,540 on the bug reports 85 00:04:19,670 --> 00:04:22,390 Those are two of the 86 00:04:22,390 --> 00:04:24,390 most useful 87 00:04:24,390 --> 00:04:26,390 documentation pages 88 00:04:27,320 --> 00:04:29,830 the wiki page about bug triage 89 00:04:29,830 --> 00:04:32,570 and the server control commands 90 00:04:33,180 --> 00:04:35,030 which are quite 91 00:04:35,030 --> 00:04:37,540 exotic, I mean, that's a huge page 92 00:04:37,810 --> 00:04:40,210 with many commands to send to the 93 00:04:40,920 --> 00:04:43,240 server control and 94 00:04:44,650 --> 00:04:47,190 really lots of things to do, to tell them 95 00:04:48,070 --> 00:04:52,400 the most useful for the 96 00:04:52,400 --> 00:04:54,400 Well, those are highly used 97 00:04:55,950 --> 00:04:56,980 You can 98 00:04:56,980 --> 00:04:59,340 try to reproduce bug reports 99 00:05:00,610 --> 00:05:02,530 I'm going to detail afterwards 100 00:05:02,850 --> 00:05:07,750 You can tag bug reports when they are unreproducible 101 00:05:08,050 --> 00:05:09,750 you can merge bugs 102 00:05:10,280 --> 00:05:11,870 forward them upstream 103 00:05:12,520 --> 00:05:14,800 and deal with upstream 104 00:05:15,760 --> 00:05:17,750 and deal with submitters 105 00:05:19,660 --> 00:05:21,360 and, I nearly forgot, you can 106 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:24,310 close bugs, which is really the best part 107 00:05:25,690 --> 00:05:27,930 So, reproducing them 108 00:05:29,040 --> 00:05:33,040 Sometimes, you get bug reports that have not been touched in years 109 00:05:33,540 --> 00:05:34,190 and 110 00:05:36,460 --> 00:05:39,450 probably they are fixed, or maybe not, but 111 00:05:39,670 --> 00:05:41,140 in doubt 112 00:05:41,490 --> 00:05:44,310 it will probably just wait there and nobody will 113 00:05:44,830 --> 00:05:46,950 touch the bug report because 114 00:05:47,560 --> 00:05:50,430 there's a high probability it doesn't apply anymore 115 00:05:50,430 --> 00:05:52,750 so you can test if it still applies 116 00:05:56,130 --> 00:05:58,120 There are also new bug reports 117 00:05:58,120 --> 00:06:01,050 that are only one person reported 118 00:06:01,050 --> 00:06:03,050 so, if they're not tagged 119 00:06:03,810 --> 00:06:05,420 "confirmed" 120 00:06:05,970 --> 00:06:07,910 or "pending" 121 00:06:07,910 --> 00:06:09,910 and if you can 122 00:06:09,910 --> 00:06:11,910 [mic out of battery] 123 00:06:34,140 --> 00:06:37,440 If new bug reports have been confirmed yet, 124 00:06:37,440 --> 00:06:38,660 you can 125 00:06:39,030 --> 00:06:41,600 try and see if you can reproduce them 126 00:06:42,580 --> 00:06:44,730 and if yes, confirm them 127 00:06:46,300 --> 00:06:48,050 If you can reproduce 128 00:06:48,050 --> 00:06:49,810 old bugs or new bugs 129 00:06:49,810 --> 00:06:51,810 not confirmed yet 130 00:06:51,810 --> 00:06:53,810 then you write to "nnn" 131 00:06:53,810 --> 00:06:56,540 so, that's for the bug number 132 00:06:57,270 --> 00:06:59,850 @bugs.debian.org 133 00:06:59,850 --> 00:07:01,240 and tag them 134 00:07:01,630 --> 00:07:04,730 That's the first of the strange commands 135 00:07:04,730 --> 00:07:07,270 So, "found" the number of the bug 136 00:07:13,940 --> 00:07:15,040 version number 137 00:07:17,610 --> 00:07:19,900 you confirm which version 138 00:07:20,470 --> 00:07:22,330 and you tag it 139 00:07:22,330 --> 00:07:24,370 "confirmed", and "thanks", because 140 00:07:24,370 --> 00:07:26,370 server control is very polite 141 00:07:26,370 --> 00:07:28,370 so if you don't thank it 142 00:07:28,370 --> 00:07:29,980 each time you 143 00:07:29,980 --> 00:07:32,170 make a command, it's upset 144 00:07:38,640 --> 00:07:40,840 Another way to 145 00:07:41,220 --> 00:07:43,200 triage a bug is to 146 00:07:44,290 --> 00:07:46,290 try to reproduce it 147 00:07:46,500 --> 00:07:49,200 and, let's say it didn't work 148 00:08:00,070 --> 00:08:03,740 If you can't reproduce it and it's fixed 149 00:08:04,020 --> 00:08:06,880 then we'll see later you can close it 150 00:08:07,600 --> 00:08:09,830 If you can't reproduce it but 151 00:08:09,830 --> 00:08:10,850 you're not sure it's fixed 152 00:08:10,850 --> 00:08:12,850 because maybe it's because you don't have the same 153 00:08:12,850 --> 00:08:15,150 configuration as the submitter 154 00:08:15,190 --> 00:08:15,780 or 155 00:08:16,470 --> 00:08:18,110 maybe you didn't 156 00:08:18,250 --> 00:08:20,950 you're not sure you followed the same steps 157 00:08:21,220 --> 00:08:22,470 to 158 00:08:22,470 --> 00:08:24,030 try it 159 00:08:24,030 --> 00:08:26,100 If you're not sure, then you 160 00:08:26,100 --> 00:08:28,100 tag "unreproducible" 161 00:08:28,100 --> 00:08:30,100 or "moreinfo" 162 00:08:31,180 --> 00:08:33,390 and it 163 00:08:33,390 --> 00:08:35,390 lets the submitter know 164 00:08:35,390 --> 00:08:37,390 and the maintainer that 165 00:08:38,230 --> 00:08:40,320 not everybody finds the bug 166 00:08:40,750 --> 00:08:42,850 which can be an information 167 00:08:45,460 --> 00:08:47,670 Sometimes, you could have to merge them 168 00:08:47,670 --> 00:08:50,870 that's especially true for the new bugs because 169 00:08:53,280 --> 00:08:56,060 it's where they stay forever 170 00:08:56,060 --> 00:08:58,060 duplicates 171 00:09:00,610 --> 00:09:01,730 That's 172 00:09:05,120 --> 00:09:06,840 Putting them on the same package 173 00:09:06,840 --> 00:09:09,160 and with the same severity and state is 174 00:09:09,340 --> 00:09:10,400 different operations 175 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:13,070 it's detailed in the documentation 176 00:09:13,680 --> 00:09:15,440 and, at the end, you 177 00:09:15,440 --> 00:09:16,620 merge 178 00:09:16,620 --> 00:09:17,980 That's funny 179 00:09:19,170 --> 00:09:21,850 All the messages are gonna be 180 00:09:22,550 --> 00:09:24,290 put together, so 181 00:09:24,710 --> 00:09:27,490 sometimes you have to search for a while, and 182 00:09:27,700 --> 00:09:29,920 there can be more than two bugs 183 00:09:30,790 --> 00:09:31,470 fusionned 184 00:09:31,470 --> 00:09:33,290 So, sometimes it's really 185 00:09:33,290 --> 00:09:35,020 not fusionned, merged 186 00:09:35,760 --> 00:09:37,230 After a while, sometimes there can be 187 00:09:37,230 --> 00:09:38,730 three or four 188 00:09:38,730 --> 00:09:40,390 if people 189 00:09:40,390 --> 00:09:42,390 keep opening the same one 190 00:09:42,600 --> 00:09:44,580 So, that's sometimes funny 191 00:09:46,430 --> 00:09:48,680 An other way is to report, 192 00:09:48,680 --> 00:09:51,540 to forward reports upstream 193 00:09:51,690 --> 00:09:52,680 because 194 00:09:53,320 --> 00:09:56,130 Debian is mainly packages 195 00:09:56,670 --> 00:09:59,690 that are not developped for Debian but upstream 196 00:10:00,460 --> 00:10:02,430 and only Debian packaged 197 00:10:02,430 --> 00:10:04,270 so, if there's a bug 198 00:10:04,270 --> 00:10:06,080 occurring in Debian, 199 00:10:06,080 --> 00:10:08,080 in most cases it occurs 200 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:09,360 upstream 201 00:10:10,230 --> 00:10:11,620 so you can search 202 00:10:11,620 --> 00:10:13,820 the upstream bug tracker to see 203 00:10:13,820 --> 00:10:15,820 if they have similar reports 204 00:10:18,350 --> 00:10:19,360 If they do 205 00:10:19,360 --> 00:10:21,360 sometimes they also have 206 00:10:21,360 --> 00:10:23,360 a workaround or 207 00:10:23,980 --> 00:10:26,190 sometimes 208 00:10:26,840 --> 00:10:29,150 upstream says they won't fix it 209 00:10:29,150 --> 00:10:31,590 because they don't consider it a bug or 210 00:10:36,740 --> 00:10:38,270 When it's the case, then 211 00:10:40,230 --> 00:10:42,220 the information should be 212 00:10:42,370 --> 00:10:45,190 put in the Debian 213 00:10:45,190 --> 00:10:47,190 bugtracker 214 00:10:47,550 --> 00:10:48,720 and 215 00:10:56,080 --> 00:10:56,920 if 216 00:10:57,110 --> 00:11:00,620 the bug already exists in upstream, then 217 00:11:01,050 --> 00:11:02,620 Debian bug tracker should know it 218 00:11:02,620 --> 00:11:05,280 so you have to tell it to the BTS 219 00:11:09,750 --> 00:11:12,160 That's also a command, I 220 00:11:12,160 --> 00:11:14,470 fucked my 221 00:11:16,140 --> 00:11:17,670 the way to show it, but, ok 222 00:11:17,670 --> 00:11:18,790 that's the command 223 00:11:18,790 --> 00:11:21,540 so, "forwarded", the bug number 224 00:11:21,540 --> 00:11:22,980 in Debian 225 00:11:23,110 --> 00:11:26,160 and the bug number upstream 226 00:11:26,660 --> 00:11:29,830 and "thanks" again, because it's always polite 227 00:11:31,260 --> 00:11:34,580 There are other things you can do with upstream 228 00:11:35,470 --> 00:11:36,580 Sometimes 229 00:11:36,580 --> 00:11:38,880 they don't have the bug report 230 00:11:38,880 --> 00:11:40,320 but it's 231 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:42,320 obviously a bug of them 232 00:11:43,050 --> 00:11:44,320 so 233 00:11:44,800 --> 00:11:46,320 if you can reproduce 234 00:11:46,320 --> 00:11:48,100 the bug, you should 235 00:11:48,100 --> 00:11:50,100 open a bug upstream 236 00:11:50,360 --> 00:11:51,650 which is 237 00:11:52,030 --> 00:11:54,030 most of the time a pain in the ass 238 00:11:54,030 --> 00:11:56,680 because you have to register an account 239 00:11:56,680 --> 00:11:58,680 or find 240 00:11:58,680 --> 00:12:00,680 their bug tracker or any way 241 00:12:02,530 --> 00:12:03,490 That's fun 242 00:12:09,020 --> 00:12:11,710 So, it saves time to the maintainer 243 00:12:11,710 --> 00:12:13,710 and the submitter 244 00:12:14,340 --> 00:12:18,520 sees more chances to see it solved at some point also 245 00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:21,740 If you open 246 00:12:21,740 --> 00:12:24,690 the bug in the upstream bug tracker and you 247 00:12:24,690 --> 00:12:25,780 have to do 248 00:12:26,420 --> 00:12:29,760 to mark it as forwarded as we just saw 249 00:12:32,050 --> 00:12:34,820 Sometimes, upstream says it's fixed 250 00:12:35,430 --> 00:12:37,280 and then you should 251 00:12:37,910 --> 00:12:41,330 say to Debian bug tracker that it's fixed upstream 252 00:12:43,990 --> 00:12:47,110 you have to say in which version 253 00:12:47,780 --> 00:12:48,890 and 254 00:12:49,570 --> 00:12:52,130 maybe the maintainer will update 255 00:12:52,130 --> 00:12:54,130 his package to 256 00:12:54,790 --> 00:12:58,010 give the fixed version 257 00:13:01,900 --> 00:13:04,030 and sometimes there's a patch upstream 258 00:13:04,030 --> 00:13:05,490 that has not been applied 259 00:13:05,490 --> 00:13:07,390 so you can also review 260 00:13:07,390 --> 00:13:09,600 and/or test it 261 00:13:11,250 --> 00:13:13,910 and tell them if it works 262 00:13:14,470 --> 00:13:15,620 or not 263 00:13:18,550 --> 00:13:19,630 If it works 264 00:13:19,630 --> 00:13:21,630 you can also 265 00:13:23,290 --> 00:13:26,610 bring it to the Debian bug tracking system and 266 00:13:26,610 --> 00:13:29,100 tag the bug "patch" 267 00:13:31,730 --> 00:13:34,720 There's also work with submitters 268 00:13:38,420 --> 00:13:40,950 there's a high percentage of bugs 269 00:13:40,950 --> 00:13:42,620 that are tagged "moreinfo" 270 00:13:43,390 --> 00:13:44,620 Somebody 271 00:13:44,620 --> 00:13:46,130 told us 272 00:13:46,240 --> 00:13:48,610 "It doesn't work" and 273 00:13:49,460 --> 00:13:52,310 we need to know how it doesn't work 274 00:13:54,870 --> 00:13:56,050 Sometimes 275 00:13:58,290 --> 00:14:01,050 there has been a new version packaged 276 00:14:01,160 --> 00:14:04,650 and maybe the bug occurs, maybe not 277 00:14:04,650 --> 00:14:05,890 you have to know 278 00:14:06,570 --> 00:14:08,330 or somebody said 279 00:14:08,330 --> 00:14:11,460 "I'll test with this version or this setup" 280 00:14:11,460 --> 00:14:14,880 and/or say "I'll report it upstream" and 281 00:14:16,130 --> 00:14:17,180 nothing happened 282 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:27,770 and sometimes 283 00:14:27,770 --> 00:14:29,770 it stays in this 284 00:14:29,830 --> 00:14:32,150 "waiting for information" situation 285 00:14:32,150 --> 00:14:34,150 for a long time 286 00:14:34,150 --> 00:14:35,590 I wrote 287 00:14:35,590 --> 00:14:37,590 a year or a release 288 00:14:37,590 --> 00:14:39,590 because that's what I consider 289 00:14:39,590 --> 00:14:41,180 starting being a long time 290 00:14:41,180 --> 00:14:43,800 I found some, I closed some that were 291 00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,650 not touched since more than ten years, that's 292 00:14:48,110 --> 00:14:49,300 record 293 00:14:51,260 --> 00:14:52,220 You can help 294 00:14:52,220 --> 00:14:55,160 you can send an e-mail to the 295 00:14:55,570 --> 00:14:57,270 person whose input is needed 296 00:14:57,270 --> 00:14:58,690 so, sometimes 297 00:14:58,690 --> 00:15:00,690 the submitter, sometimes the 298 00:15:01,250 --> 00:15:03,690 maintainer, sometimes upstream 299 00:15:04,150 --> 00:15:05,200 sometimes 300 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:07,240 somebody else 301 00:15:09,490 --> 00:15:10,530 saying 302 00:15:10,530 --> 00:15:12,140 "You said you would do that" or 303 00:15:12,140 --> 00:15:13,900 "Can you still reproduce it?" 304 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:16,540 because 305 00:15:17,020 --> 00:15:19,960 so that the bug report become 306 00:15:21,150 --> 00:15:23,520 gets in a state where we see 307 00:15:23,520 --> 00:15:25,230 what's the current status and 308 00:15:25,230 --> 00:15:27,230 what should be done 309 00:15:28,750 --> 00:15:30,700 So, the tricky part is 310 00:15:30,700 --> 00:15:31,790 don't 311 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:34,210 close random bugs 312 00:15:36,800 --> 00:15:39,050 As we'll see later, it can be dangerous 313 00:15:43,710 --> 00:15:45,580 You can search for packages 314 00:15:45,580 --> 00:15:47,580 that have a lot of bug reports 315 00:15:48,460 --> 00:15:50,840 and ask the maintainer if 316 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:53,160 help is welcome, or 317 00:15:53,330 --> 00:15:55,400 you can find a nice team 318 00:15:56,330 --> 00:15:58,590 Debian is centered with 319 00:15:59,760 --> 00:16:01,650 composed of plenty of teams 320 00:16:02,040 --> 00:16:04,180 Most of them are really welcoming 321 00:16:04,180 --> 00:16:05,590 to new contributors 322 00:16:05,590 --> 00:16:07,190 because they need help 323 00:16:07,610 --> 00:16:09,000 and 324 00:16:09,000 --> 00:16:10,720 those I met are nice 325 00:16:15,040 --> 00:16:16,990 and in a team, you're sure there's 326 00:16:16,990 --> 00:16:18,660 plenty of packages, so 327 00:16:18,660 --> 00:16:20,660 plenty of bugs to triage 328 00:16:20,660 --> 00:16:22,660 and people to answer questions 329 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:25,740 I've 330 00:16:25,740 --> 00:16:27,590 triaged bugs from 331 00:16:27,590 --> 00:16:29,590 perl team, games team 332 00:16:29,590 --> 00:16:31,030 X strike force 333 00:16:31,030 --> 00:16:32,270 they're all very nice 334 00:16:32,270 --> 00:16:33,850 I recommend them to you 335 00:16:36,050 --> 00:16:37,490 I 336 00:16:38,080 --> 00:16:40,260 tried, but I didn't get 337 00:16:40,260 --> 00:16:42,260 really understood anything, but 338 00:16:42,260 --> 00:16:43,960 if you do understand anything 339 00:16:44,570 --> 00:16:45,740 kernel bugs 340 00:16:45,740 --> 00:16:47,350 need work too 341 00:16:51,420 --> 00:16:55,450 On the documentation about bug triage 342 00:16:55,450 --> 00:16:57,450 I added a section about 343 00:16:57,450 --> 00:16:58,900 teams that welcome help 344 00:16:58,900 --> 00:17:00,520 So, if you're in a team 345 00:17:00,520 --> 00:17:03,130 that needs triaging, add yourself there 346 00:17:04,750 --> 00:17:06,250 If you want to triage 347 00:17:06,250 --> 00:17:07,619 look there 348 00:17:08,410 --> 00:17:10,079 who wants help 349 00:17:11,010 --> 00:17:13,240 and you don't need to understand 350 00:17:13,240 --> 00:17:15,240 anything about what they do to 351 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:16,380 triage there bugs 352 00:17:16,380 --> 00:17:17,440 I mean, 353 00:17:17,440 --> 00:17:19,440 Perl... I don't code 354 00:17:19,440 --> 00:17:21,170 so Perl is... and 355 00:17:21,170 --> 00:17:22,780 X strike force is like 356 00:17:22,780 --> 00:17:25,230 not really written in english 357 00:17:25,230 --> 00:17:26,119 but 358 00:17:26,710 --> 00:17:28,240 Ok, games, I could 359 00:17:28,240 --> 00:17:30,240 try to reproduce them 360 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:31,520 some of them 361 00:17:31,520 --> 00:17:33,440 the others, really not, but 362 00:17:33,440 --> 00:17:35,440 sometime, you really can see the status 363 00:17:35,440 --> 00:17:38,370 of a bug without understanding what it's about 364 00:17:39,970 --> 00:17:41,500 You see that if somebody asked 365 00:17:41,500 --> 00:17:43,210 for info a year ago, 366 00:17:43,210 --> 00:17:44,580 it has to be pinged 367 00:17:44,580 --> 00:17:46,030 or 368 00:17:46,460 --> 00:17:48,560 considered that there's not gonna be any 369 00:17:48,560 --> 00:17:51,020 even if you don't understand what the bug is 370 00:17:51,060 --> 00:17:52,680 you can see what the status 371 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:54,000 of the bug is 372 00:17:57,450 --> 00:17:58,970 A fabulous tool 373 00:17:58,970 --> 00:18:03,380 is ultimate Debian database bug search 374 00:18:08,280 --> 00:18:10,100 It looks like this 375 00:18:14,990 --> 00:18:16,210 Please ignore that 376 00:18:16,840 --> 00:18:18,220 So, you select 377 00:18:18,660 --> 00:18:20,220 which version 378 00:18:21,840 --> 00:18:24,720 you can add many filters 379 00:18:26,010 --> 00:18:27,040 bug types 380 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:29,690 Well, actually it also includes the teams here 381 00:18:31,840 --> 00:18:34,470 and when you're done, you search 382 00:18:35,680 --> 00:18:36,750 That's 383 00:18:37,290 --> 00:18:38,750 really useful 384 00:18:46,740 --> 00:18:48,090 As you see, my 385 00:18:48,090 --> 00:18:50,090 it doesn't look like it should 386 00:18:54,760 --> 00:18:59,070 Criteria for bugs that have been lost 387 00:18:59,810 --> 00:19:02,140 If you ignore those that have been touched 388 00:19:02,140 --> 00:19:04,350 or created in the last year 389 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:06,500 and you select 390 00:19:06,500 --> 00:19:08,770 either "wontfix" or "moreinfo" 391 00:19:08,770 --> 00:19:11,330 or "upstream" or "unreproducible" 392 00:19:15,330 --> 00:19:16,900 then you choose a team 393 00:19:16,900 --> 00:19:18,090 and 394 00:19:18,600 --> 00:19:21,180 you're gonna find lots of lost bugs 395 00:19:21,470 --> 00:19:23,340 then you can start reading them 396 00:19:23,340 --> 00:19:24,850 and see what's their status 397 00:19:30,650 --> 00:19:33,360 If they are unreproducible 398 00:19:38,030 --> 00:19:39,100 if the bug 399 00:19:40,360 --> 00:19:42,240 has been fixed, actually 400 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:43,250 Well, 401 00:19:43,250 --> 00:19:46,160 either the new version fixes the bug or 402 00:19:47,590 --> 00:19:49,480 Anyway, the bug has been fixed 403 00:19:49,480 --> 00:19:52,340 because it's a configuration thing anyway 404 00:19:52,340 --> 00:19:54,340 it doesn't happen anymore 405 00:19:56,800 --> 00:19:58,220 you can close it 406 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:01,000 So, that's the bug number again 407 00:20:01,730 --> 00:20:04,320 "done@bugs.debian.org" 408 00:20:04,860 --> 00:20:07,060 and you have to put 409 00:20:07,060 --> 00:20:09,060 in which version it has been fixed 410 00:20:09,060 --> 00:20:11,330 so, maybe it has been fixed 411 00:20:11,330 --> 00:20:13,330 in the meantime 412 00:20:13,330 --> 00:20:15,330 but, at least, say 413 00:20:15,970 --> 00:20:18,190 "this current version, I'm sure it's fixed" 414 00:20:19,480 --> 00:20:21,820 so that the BTS knows 415 00:20:22,440 --> 00:20:24,280 which version it affects and 416 00:20:24,280 --> 00:20:27,430 most of all, which versions are not affected 417 00:20:29,530 --> 00:20:32,790 There's a nice documentation page about that 418 00:20:35,130 --> 00:20:36,950 closing bug reports is only 419 00:20:36,950 --> 00:20:38,400 sending one e-mail to 420 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:40,400 "done@bugs.debian.org" 421 00:20:45,820 --> 00:20:49,550 That was for "unreproducible" 422 00:20:49,550 --> 00:20:51,550 Ok, "moreinfo" or "wontfix" 423 00:20:52,750 --> 00:20:53,670 For those 424 00:20:53,670 --> 00:20:55,670 you have to make sure with a team 425 00:20:55,670 --> 00:20:57,250 or the maintainer what 426 00:20:57,250 --> 00:20:58,980 is there policy, because 427 00:20:58,980 --> 00:21:01,180 some people want to keep them all 428 00:21:01,180 --> 00:21:03,730 open forever 429 00:21:07,450 --> 00:21:09,820 and some "wontfix" should 430 00:21:09,820 --> 00:21:11,770 anyway stay open because 431 00:21:11,770 --> 00:21:14,110 if there are functionalities or 432 00:21:14,110 --> 00:21:16,110 bugs that are 433 00:21:16,110 --> 00:21:18,370 often requested, then 434 00:21:18,370 --> 00:21:20,320 it would be silly to close it 435 00:21:20,320 --> 00:21:22,730 then have somebody reopen it soon 436 00:21:23,760 --> 00:21:25,230 but, lots of 437 00:21:25,230 --> 00:21:27,890 bugs that are tagged "moreinfo" 438 00:21:27,890 --> 00:21:30,100 and never got info back 439 00:21:30,100 --> 00:21:32,100 or are tagged "wontfix" 440 00:21:34,190 --> 00:21:36,550 should just be closed because there's no work 441 00:21:36,870 --> 00:21:39,260 that's gonna happen to them 442 00:21:41,340 --> 00:21:44,260 There are no 443 00:21:44,260 --> 00:21:46,900 guidelines on the documentation about that 444 00:21:46,900 --> 00:21:48,900 so I decided arbitrarily 445 00:21:48,900 --> 00:21:51,130 one year after 446 00:21:51,130 --> 00:21:53,910 the submitter was pinged and didn't answer 447 00:21:57,530 --> 00:21:59,490 we could maybe consider that 448 00:21:59,490 --> 00:22:01,490 missing submitter 449 00:22:01,490 --> 00:22:04,300 Maybe it could be shorter, but 450 00:22:05,480 --> 00:22:07,860 People could be angry also because it's also 451 00:22:08,410 --> 00:22:11,010 great contribution to report bugs and that should 452 00:22:11,010 --> 00:22:13,010 not be deleted 453 00:22:13,010 --> 00:22:14,140 lightly 454 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,600 If you're sure that the bug is 455 00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:20,600 really no use to anyone 456 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:22,960 then, just the same 457 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:25,180 number "-done" 458 00:22:26,260 --> 00:22:29,040 with the explanation, of course 459 00:22:29,900 --> 00:22:31,340 So, an example 460 00:22:32,730 --> 00:22:34,960 We're gonna do the search 461 00:22:34,960 --> 00:22:36,470 "wontfix" 462 00:22:37,810 --> 00:22:39,970 not touched in the last year, perl 463 00:22:46,650 --> 00:22:48,200 Include "wontfix" 464 00:22:55,140 --> 00:22:56,150 ignore 465 00:22:57,720 --> 00:23:00,430 created or modified in the last 466 00:23:00,430 --> 00:23:02,430 year or so 467 00:23:03,260 --> 00:23:06,180 and let's see those of the perl team 468 00:23:23,950 --> 00:23:25,370 All those bugs 469 00:23:25,370 --> 00:23:27,630 from different packages 470 00:23:27,630 --> 00:23:28,930 but they're all 471 00:23:30,190 --> 00:23:32,690 they all respond to the same criteria 472 00:23:33,360 --> 00:23:36,040 and we can sort them 473 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:38,040 by the last time they were modified 474 00:23:40,460 --> 00:23:43,790 lots of them have been forgotten for some years 475 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,010 and, well, the 476 00:23:49,020 --> 00:23:51,750 next step is to start reading the reports 477 00:23:53,610 --> 00:23:55,710 since I did prepare a little bit 478 00:23:55,710 --> 00:23:57,350 even if not much 479 00:23:57,530 --> 00:23:59,560 I selected one, so 480 00:23:59,560 --> 00:24:01,970 there's one that can be read 481 00:24:02,700 --> 00:24:05,160 and I won't read it 482 00:24:05,160 --> 00:24:07,160 completely with you today, but 483 00:24:09,400 --> 00:24:11,370 you see that 484 00:24:11,370 --> 00:24:13,370 the conclusion is 485 00:24:13,370 --> 00:24:15,900 upstream considered it's not a bug 486 00:24:16,740 --> 00:24:18,270 it was told in 487 00:24:18,270 --> 00:24:19,850 2010 488 00:24:19,850 --> 00:24:20,930 so 489 00:24:21,900 --> 00:24:24,380 there has been time 490 00:24:24,380 --> 00:24:26,380 to let people know 491 00:24:26,380 --> 00:24:29,470 [laughter] 492 00:24:30,280 --> 00:24:32,930 and it's closed upstream 493 00:24:33,320 --> 00:24:35,680 so, that's the bug report upstream 494 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:37,680 where upstream says 495 00:24:38,380 --> 00:24:41,230 "It does according to the man page" 496 00:24:41,640 --> 00:24:42,640 "closing" 497 00:24:43,130 --> 00:24:45,070 So, upstream closed it 498 00:24:46,070 --> 00:24:47,550 we should do the same 499 00:24:48,410 --> 00:24:49,550 So, I did it 500 00:24:49,550 --> 00:24:51,550 and I 501 00:24:51,550 --> 00:24:54,180 won't show you now, so I 502 00:24:58,170 --> 00:24:59,880 sent this e-mail 503 00:24:59,880 --> 00:25:01,880 just before I came in 504 00:25:04,390 --> 00:25:06,910 to -done 505 00:25:06,910 --> 00:25:08,290 subject: 506 00:25:10,530 --> 00:25:13,000 we use a bug 507 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:15,000 report 508 00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,000 subject, so that people 509 00:25:17,000 --> 00:25:19,000 know what it's about 510 00:25:19,000 --> 00:25:21,000 and I precise that I'm closing it 511 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:23,820 and then, that's my standard message 512 00:25:27,990 --> 00:25:30,070 "Hi, I'm closing this bug since it was 513 00:25:30,070 --> 00:25:32,070 tagged unreproducible for some 514 00:25:32,070 --> 00:25:33,450 years without answer 515 00:25:33,450 --> 00:25:35,450 If you have new reasons to point 516 00:25:35,450 --> 00:25:37,570 out this problem, please feel free 517 00:25:37,570 --> 00:25:39,570 to reopen or ask me to do it" 518 00:25:41,300 --> 00:25:43,360 That's because not all submitters 519 00:25:43,360 --> 00:25:45,500 know all the subtleties 520 00:25:45,500 --> 00:25:48,480 of the control server 521 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,480 and not all of them 522 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:52,480 know how to reopen a bug 523 00:25:53,510 --> 00:25:56,990 so asking them to reopen 524 00:25:56,990 --> 00:25:58,990 a bug can be 525 00:25:58,990 --> 00:26:00,990 a little bit to much, so 526 00:26:01,440 --> 00:26:03,540 if I closed it 527 00:26:03,540 --> 00:26:05,440 and it was not a good idea, they can 528 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:07,440 ask me to reopen it, so 529 00:26:08,870 --> 00:26:12,650 nobody becomes lost in the way 530 00:26:17,230 --> 00:26:20,270 Sometimes, there are bug reports where 531 00:26:20,270 --> 00:26:22,380 probably it should be 532 00:26:22,380 --> 00:26:24,280 closed or merged 533 00:26:24,280 --> 00:26:25,870 or something, but you're not 534 00:26:25,870 --> 00:26:27,870 completely sure 535 00:26:30,170 --> 00:26:32,800 There no hurry, most of them 536 00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,800 are waiting since a while anyway 537 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:36,800 so just take 538 00:26:36,800 --> 00:26:38,800 some days, weeks, months 539 00:26:38,800 --> 00:26:40,800 or years 540 00:26:41,270 --> 00:26:42,980 as it happens, and 541 00:26:44,320 --> 00:26:46,070 maybe next time you 542 00:26:46,070 --> 00:26:48,300 open this bug report, it will be 543 00:26:48,300 --> 00:26:50,300 way clearer what you should do with it 544 00:26:50,300 --> 00:26:53,370 because more experience or 545 00:26:54,610 --> 00:26:56,180 clearer mind that day 546 00:26:57,190 --> 00:26:58,470 You can also 547 00:26:58,470 --> 00:27:00,470 ask for opinions from 548 00:27:00,470 --> 00:27:03,210 the maintainers if they are 549 00:27:04,090 --> 00:27:06,760 willing to help or to 550 00:27:07,520 --> 00:27:09,380 other friends or 551 00:27:09,380 --> 00:27:11,380 team members 552 00:27:13,810 --> 00:27:14,940 Warning 553 00:27:15,560 --> 00:27:18,290 that's the point 554 00:27:18,290 --> 00:27:20,820 earlier about not closing random bugs 555 00:27:20,820 --> 00:27:22,820 if the maintainer doesn't have 556 00:27:22,820 --> 00:27:24,820 time to triage his bugs 557 00:27:24,820 --> 00:27:26,820 or her bugs, they don't 558 00:27:26,820 --> 00:27:28,820 necessarily have time to 559 00:27:29,710 --> 00:27:31,250 explain to you 560 00:27:31,250 --> 00:27:33,540 in which case they want it closed or not 561 00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:36,660 That's why it's good to 562 00:27:37,170 --> 00:27:38,900 work in a team because 563 00:27:38,900 --> 00:27:41,260 that's more likely you have somebody available 564 00:27:41,260 --> 00:27:43,740 to help you, in doubt 565 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,250 Another important part is 566 00:27:48,250 --> 00:27:50,250 say what you're doing 567 00:27:50,560 --> 00:27:51,890 because 568 00:27:53,400 --> 00:27:54,660 if people don't understand what 569 00:27:54,660 --> 00:27:56,660 you're doing, they 570 00:27:56,660 --> 00:27:58,060 might react badly 571 00:27:59,980 --> 00:28:01,660 Make sure everybody 572 00:28:01,660 --> 00:28:03,360 get the information they need 573 00:28:03,360 --> 00:28:05,630 because if you're closing a bug 574 00:28:05,630 --> 00:28:07,890 then the submitter gets 575 00:28:07,890 --> 00:28:09,890 the information 576 00:28:09,890 --> 00:28:11,890 but if you add a 577 00:28:11,890 --> 00:28:13,890 tag, they don't, and 578 00:28:13,890 --> 00:28:15,890 other people that answered the 579 00:28:15,890 --> 00:28:17,730 bug report saying they 580 00:28:17,730 --> 00:28:19,730 also got the problem, don't 581 00:28:19,730 --> 00:28:21,730 get the information 582 00:28:22,310 --> 00:28:24,490 so sometimes 583 00:28:26,410 --> 00:28:29,000 sometimes you have to check who 584 00:28:30,220 --> 00:28:32,490 provided input to the bug report 585 00:28:32,490 --> 00:28:37,200 and make sure you copy them to the 586 00:28:37,660 --> 00:28:39,910 mails you're sending so that they 587 00:28:39,910 --> 00:28:41,910 get information 588 00:28:44,900 --> 00:28:47,630 Don't write a novel 589 00:28:47,630 --> 00:28:49,630 when you close or triage bugs 590 00:28:49,630 --> 00:28:52,130 but give all information 591 00:28:52,130 --> 00:28:54,130 so that people can understand 592 00:28:54,130 --> 00:28:56,130 what you're doing, so that they have 593 00:28:56,130 --> 00:28:58,130 a little bit of context and don't need 594 00:28:58,130 --> 00:29:00,130 to read the whole thread 595 00:29:00,670 --> 00:29:03,150 to know why you're doing it, so 596 00:29:03,730 --> 00:29:05,990 in the example I gave earlier 597 00:29:05,990 --> 00:29:07,990 I copy the subject 598 00:29:07,990 --> 00:29:10,660 of the bug report so that they know 599 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,040 what was a bug report and I say 600 00:29:13,800 --> 00:29:15,050 its status 601 00:29:15,050 --> 00:29:17,330 that's why I take this decision, so 602 00:29:17,860 --> 00:29:20,120 they have an idea what's happening 603 00:29:21,090 --> 00:29:22,070 and 604 00:29:24,410 --> 00:29:26,510 you can have generic messages 605 00:29:26,510 --> 00:29:28,510 you don't need to innovate 606 00:29:28,510 --> 00:29:30,510 each time so that you just copy and 607 00:29:30,510 --> 00:29:32,510 paste and 608 00:29:32,510 --> 00:29:34,510 maybe change a few words 609 00:29:35,110 --> 00:29:36,090 and 610 00:29:37,810 --> 00:29:39,180 since you just copy-paste 611 00:29:39,180 --> 00:29:41,180 it doesn't take more time, so 612 00:29:41,700 --> 00:29:43,430 write a few nice words 613 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:45,920 it helps 614 00:29:50,640 --> 00:30:02,480 [laughter and applause] 615 00:30:02,480 --> 00:30:04,590 Beware, there be dragons 616 00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:08,680 I stopped closing bugs the last 617 00:30:08,680 --> 00:30:10,570 two months because I closed one from 618 00:30:10,570 --> 00:30:12,570 Ian Jackson 619 00:30:12,570 --> 00:30:14,570 and it was a bad idea 620 00:30:14,570 --> 00:30:15,670 and 621 00:30:16,260 --> 00:30:17,970 it was such a bad idea 622 00:30:17,970 --> 00:30:19,840 I lost my enthusiasm 623 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:21,460 for a few months 624 00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:25,340 if you meet a bug by Ian Jackson 625 00:30:25,340 --> 00:30:27,340 if everything seems 626 00:30:27,340 --> 00:30:28,950 like it should be closed 627 00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:31,450 or tagged, maybe 628 00:30:31,730 --> 00:30:34,120 just close your tab 629 00:30:34,320 --> 00:30:36,510 ignore it 630 00:30:36,510 --> 00:30:38,510 just, it doesn't exist 631 00:30:38,510 --> 00:30:39,920 you know 632 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:41,830 you certainly have 633 00:30:41,830 --> 00:30:43,830 better things to do with you life 634 00:30:43,830 --> 00:30:45,830 you do, really 635 00:30:50,710 --> 00:30:53,290 I have to be frank, that's 636 00:30:53,740 --> 00:30:55,620 that's him, but 637 00:30:55,620 --> 00:30:58,210 there are probably others out there 638 00:31:01,760 --> 00:31:03,550 but keep on 639 00:31:03,550 --> 00:31:06,330 There are also very very nice people 640 00:31:06,330 --> 00:31:08,520 in Debian, some that 641 00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:10,520 with whom you can work 642 00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:12,930 and talk and that are 643 00:31:13,310 --> 00:31:15,140 helpful and nice 644 00:31:15,140 --> 00:31:17,830 and welcoming 645 00:31:17,830 --> 00:31:20,310 and remember: bug triaging is fun 646 00:31:20,310 --> 00:31:22,600 and rewarding and easy 647 00:31:22,900 --> 00:31:24,780 Well, once you started 648 00:31:26,850 --> 00:31:27,860 That's it. 649 00:31:27,860 --> 00:31:41,250 [applause] 650 00:31:41,250 --> 00:31:43,250 Do you have questions? 651 00:31:43,250 --> 00:31:45,250 I guess not, but 652 00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:00,290 [Q] Hi, do you have 653 00:32:00,290 --> 00:32:02,220 some other real life stories 654 00:32:02,220 --> 00:32:04,220 of your adventures in bug fixing? 655 00:32:04,220 --> 00:32:09,510 [laughter] 656 00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:11,620 [A] Ok, I didn't 657 00:32:11,620 --> 00:32:14,170 I should have open them, I 658 00:32:14,440 --> 00:32:16,850 closed a bug that was 659 00:32:16,850 --> 00:32:18,850 more than ten years old 660 00:32:18,850 --> 00:32:20,850 That was something fun 661 00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:25,410 Some submitters wrote 662 00:32:25,410 --> 00:32:27,410 to me, asking for me to reopen 663 00:32:27,410 --> 00:32:29,410 them, so it's not just a 664 00:32:29,410 --> 00:32:32,140 technical proposition 665 00:32:32,140 --> 00:32:34,690 It does 666 00:32:34,690 --> 00:32:37,700 It is useful to propose to reopen for them 667 00:32:40,410 --> 00:32:43,340 Lots of people thanked me, actually, which 668 00:32:44,260 --> 00:32:45,920 is always nice 669 00:32:48,790 --> 00:32:51,390 My maintainer friends are sometimes 670 00:32:51,390 --> 00:32:53,760 jealous when I can say 671 00:32:53,760 --> 00:32:55,840 "I closed 20 bugs today" 672 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:59,150 [laughter] 673 00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:03,940 and they painfully closed one 674 00:33:08,260 --> 00:33:11,010 I'll keep you... up to date 675 00:33:11,010 --> 00:33:14,820 with new bug triaging stories 676 00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,750 [Q] From IRC, from Peyaro 677 00:33:30,750 --> 00:33:33,500 What to do with bugs tagged "patch" with a 678 00:33:33,500 --> 00:33:35,600 patch sent as last message but 679 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,250 no response from the maintainer? 680 00:33:41,020 --> 00:33:43,980 [A] You watch if the maintainer is active 681 00:33:43,980 --> 00:33:45,980 in his packages 682 00:33:46,340 --> 00:33:48,320 if he is, then 683 00:33:49,690 --> 00:33:51,480 try to ping him again 684 00:33:51,480 --> 00:33:53,140 and again 685 00:33:53,140 --> 00:33:55,710 if he's not responsive 686 00:33:55,710 --> 00:33:57,710 to anything, then 687 00:33:57,710 --> 00:33:59,910 you should declare him 688 00:33:59,910 --> 00:34:01,910 "missing in action" 689 00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,110 You have to write to them 690 00:34:19,840 --> 00:34:23,510 Well if they don't do their job properly 691 00:34:24,000 --> 00:34:26,150 you can propose to help 692 00:34:26,150 --> 00:34:28,150 or find somebody else to 693 00:34:28,150 --> 00:34:30,150 make a non-maintainer upload 694 00:34:30,150 --> 00:34:32,150 I guess 695 00:34:33,460 --> 00:34:34,889 but 696 00:34:35,510 --> 00:34:37,790 triaging is meant 697 00:34:37,790 --> 00:34:39,790 to help maintainers so 698 00:34:39,790 --> 00:34:41,230 you don't 699 00:34:43,050 --> 00:34:45,100 It's not the right place to 700 00:34:45,100 --> 00:34:47,100 start nagging them about the fact that 701 00:34:47,100 --> 00:34:49,100 they don't do their work properly 702 00:34:49,100 --> 00:34:51,100 They probably have reasons to 703 00:35:06,110 --> 00:35:11,660 [Indistinctible question] 704 00:35:13,930 --> 00:35:17,020 [Q] In the games team if there's a game with a bug 705 00:35:17,020 --> 00:35:19,020 you send it to the mailing list, you send it to 706 00:35:19,020 --> 00:35:21,020 the latest 707 00:35:21,020 --> 00:35:23,020 uploader 708 00:35:23,020 --> 00:35:25,020 ??? 709 00:35:25,020 --> 00:35:25,930 contact with 710 00:35:25,930 --> 00:35:27,930 [A] When I want to do what? 711 00:35:27,930 --> 00:35:29,930 [Q] When you find a bug 712 00:35:29,930 --> 00:35:33,430 in a package that is 713 00:35:33,430 --> 00:35:35,430 maintained by a team 714 00:35:35,430 --> 00:35:37,430 by a person 715 00:35:37,430 --> 00:35:39,430 Can you hear me? 716 00:35:39,430 --> 00:35:41,430 What a difference! 717 00:35:42,590 --> 00:35:45,090 [Q] When you 718 00:35:45,090 --> 00:35:47,090 are dealing with a bug that is not 719 00:35:47,090 --> 00:35:49,090 maintained by just one person 720 00:35:49,090 --> 00:35:51,090 but by a team 721 00:35:51,090 --> 00:35:53,090 what do you usually do, you 722 00:35:53,090 --> 00:35:57,900 you contact the mailing list of that 723 00:35:57,900 --> 00:36:01,210 team, you contact the last uploader 724 00:36:01,210 --> 00:36:03,210 [A] I put the team 725 00:36:03,210 --> 00:36:05,210 in copy and not just 726 00:36:05,210 --> 00:36:06,790 the uploader because 727 00:36:06,790 --> 00:36:08,790 the uploader, if 728 00:36:08,790 --> 00:36:10,790 the uploader belongs to a team 729 00:36:10,790 --> 00:36:12,790 then they're gonna 730 00:36:12,790 --> 00:36:14,990 see the e-mail on the team list 731 00:36:15,610 --> 00:36:19,080 and sometimes, other are 732 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:21,460 dealing with a package also, so 733 00:36:22,380 --> 00:36:24,230 [Q] Would it make sense to have 734 00:36:24,230 --> 00:36:26,030 at least in some teams 735 00:36:26,030 --> 00:36:28,030 some person 736 00:36:28,030 --> 00:36:31,080 devolute to interfacing with the bugs and stuff 737 00:36:33,150 --> 00:36:35,040 [A] I think 738 00:36:35,040 --> 00:36:37,040 it's useful if teams 739 00:36:37,040 --> 00:36:40,290 list themselves as welcoming 740 00:36:40,290 --> 00:36:42,070 bug triagers 741 00:36:42,070 --> 00:36:44,740 and if they can provide a 742 00:36:44,740 --> 00:36:46,740 reference person it might 743 00:36:46,740 --> 00:36:48,280 be helpful too 744 00:36:48,280 --> 00:36:50,740 That's how I 745 00:36:52,110 --> 00:36:53,950 started in each team, because I 746 00:36:53,950 --> 00:36:56,030 was sure I had one person who would 747 00:36:56,030 --> 00:36:58,030 answer my question and 748 00:36:58,030 --> 00:37:00,300 tell me nicely if I fucked up 749 00:37:02,680 --> 00:37:05,050 I was kind of scared to be 750 00:37:06,730 --> 00:37:08,760 beaten 751 00:37:10,430 --> 00:37:13,090 Yeah, it's probably useful for teams to say 752 00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,830 "We welcome triagers and here's the person who's 753 00:37:16,830 --> 00:37:18,830 willing to deal with them" 754 00:37:18,830 --> 00:37:20,830 [Q] How do you do that? In a web page? 755 00:37:20,830 --> 00:37:21,910 In the wiki? 756 00:37:23,170 --> 00:37:26,360 just maybe a wiki page or something like that 757 00:37:35,810 --> 00:37:38,230 On the bug triage documentation 758 00:37:38,230 --> 00:37:40,380 I added the 759 00:37:40,380 --> 00:37:42,630 teams that welcome help, so that 760 00:37:43,450 --> 00:37:45,270 but games is already listed there 761 00:37:46,660 --> 00:37:48,810 I listed the ones 762 00:37:48,810 --> 00:37:51,620 I had experimented 763 00:37:53,000 --> 00:37:54,440 But, yeah 764 00:37:54,990 --> 00:37:58,280 I haven't written a contact person 765 00:37:58,990 --> 00:37:59,720 because 766 00:37:59,720 --> 00:38:02,420 [Q] I was thinking that maybe 767 00:38:02,420 --> 00:38:05,060 thinking aloud 768 00:38:05,060 --> 00:38:08,150 that maybe it would be a good entry point 769 00:38:08,150 --> 00:38:11,840 for someone who wanted to join the games team 770 00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,840 and wasn't a developer 771 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:15,840 to help triaging 772 00:38:15,840 --> 00:38:17,840 bugs in that 773 00:38:18,260 --> 00:38:20,670 I mean, we have a lot of games, and 774 00:38:21,970 --> 00:38:25,200 [A] I have a good excuse to install 775 00:38:25,200 --> 00:38:27,200 all the games on my computer because I 776 00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:29,200 was trying to reproduce bugs 777 00:38:29,200 --> 00:38:31,200 [Q] Exactly! 778 00:38:33,250 --> 00:38:35,320 [A] I think, well 779 00:38:35,580 --> 00:38:37,750 I didn't want to join teams 780 00:38:37,750 --> 00:38:40,120 I'm glad to help from outside 781 00:38:40,120 --> 00:38:41,860 but I think it's a good way because 782 00:38:41,860 --> 00:38:43,860 you get to see 783 00:38:43,860 --> 00:38:45,860 very different packages 784 00:38:45,860 --> 00:38:48,360 [Q] I would mean someone more specialized 785 00:38:48,360 --> 00:38:50,360 I'm talking about the games team 786 00:38:50,360 --> 00:38:53,280 I could be talking about the ??? team 787 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,280 or the perl team 788 00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:57,280 someone who's 789 00:38:58,160 --> 00:39:00,300 who knows more or less 790 00:39:00,300 --> 00:39:02,200 who's more specialized in the kind of 791 00:39:02,200 --> 00:39:04,200 packaging the team is doing 792 00:39:04,510 --> 00:39:06,680 but also is not a developer or it's not 793 00:39:06,680 --> 00:39:09,480 working that closely as a developer 794 00:39:09,480 --> 00:39:12,500 but could be, I mean, the place where a specialized 795 00:39:12,500 --> 00:39:16,110 I don't mean as part of the 796 00:39:16,110 --> 00:39:17,730 bug triaging team 797 00:39:17,730 --> 00:39:20,100 I could be speaking about the fonts team 798 00:39:20,100 --> 00:39:22,710 Someone inside a team that 799 00:39:22,710 --> 00:39:24,710 wants to work on that 800 00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:27,210 [A] That's also funny because when you do 801 00:39:27,210 --> 00:39:29,210 bug triaging you also get to 802 00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,470 read all the exchange 803 00:39:31,470 --> 00:39:33,470 on the bug, so you also 804 00:39:34,120 --> 00:39:36,370 kind of discover the 805 00:39:36,670 --> 00:39:38,370 developers of the team 806 00:39:38,370 --> 00:39:40,370 You see how they react, how they 807 00:39:40,370 --> 00:39:42,370 answer to bug reports 808 00:39:42,720 --> 00:39:44,720 what information they want 809 00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,160 their level of patience 810 00:39:48,890 --> 00:39:51,280 So, if you want to start contributing to 811 00:39:51,280 --> 00:39:53,280 a team, that's also a good way to get 812 00:39:53,280 --> 00:39:55,280 to know the people you're gonna 813 00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:58,380 work with 814 00:40:03,350 --> 00:40:05,200 Last one? 815 00:40:06,320 --> 00:40:09,320 No. Then, there's time for a pause 816 00:40:11,110 --> 00:40:16,180 [applause]