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[Talkmeister] Next, we will have zack presenting
"Debian in the Dark Ages of Free Software"

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Can you hear me?

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Better.

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So, hello everyone.

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Welcome again to DebConf, I guess.

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It's a great pleasure to be back again 
at one DebConf

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and a great honor to be doing one 
of the opening talks.

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I confess I wasn't really expecting
that honor.

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I just wanted to propose a session

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which was supposed to be
a self held session

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for those of us that think there are
some worries

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about where the free software is going
in general.

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And the role that distributions have to play
in the current state of affairs.

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So this talk will be about a couple of
journeys at once.

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The first journey is a journey
through emotions,

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through good feelings about what
we have achieved in Free Software

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over the past 15 to 20 or 30 years

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depending on how long you've been
involved.

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The second journey is essentially 
my own journey

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through software freedom

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from the day I started discovering
Free Software

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and what I've ended up doing since then.

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Starting with the positive news.

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This is how I got involved myself
in free software in 1997.

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I understand that there are people
in the room

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who have been involved 
since way earlier than that,

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others that have been involved
since way later than that.

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Well, that's my story.

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I hope you'll find ??? points
with your own story.

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When I started as a freshman in a computer
science class at university of Bologna,

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that was a huge tiping point,

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a huge hype point for the so-called
opensource movement.

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That was the year the very influencial
essay by Eric Raymond has been published.

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That was the year that Netscape decided to
opensource its own code.

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That was the moment in the history of
free software

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when people were trying to sell
to the industry

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what free software was doing, and
I'm not using that word in a bad sense.

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There was reasonable concern that
without involvement of the industry,

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the free software movement wouldn't have
got far.

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So they were trying to tell about free
software in an industry-friendly way.

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Essentially, the rhetoric at the point
was that

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if you do development of software
in the free software way,

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in a more open way,
a more participative way,

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you will end up having better software
and that by merely opening up you code

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you'll have these flocks of programmers
coming to you project and end up helping you.

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A few years later, I realised that
I personally didn't believe much in that idea:

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it's only because your software is open
that it's gonna be better,

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but it was a fair thing to try
at the time.

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What I discovered a bit later is actually
what stuck in me

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was essentially the philosophy
of free software.

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The fact that computer user should be
in charge and in control of their own machine,

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that should have some basic freedom.

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You know about the 4 freedoms,
I'm not going to repeat them here,

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but my personal point is that
the narrative of free software is something

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that resonated with me a lot at the time.

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As a student, I realised that by having
free software at my fingertip

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as a computer science student,

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I could debug any single layer
of the software stack

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and look at how things are going.

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I didn't have to trust the teacher on how
an operating system should be developed.

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I was able to open up sched.c in
the linux kernel and have a look

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at the actual scheduling algorithm that
was being implemented in the real kernel.

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Not that I really got all of it at the time

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but the possibility was just breathtaking
for me.

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Later on, I ended up distilling
the main intuition of free software,

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which is the one I used to explain
free software to people,

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which is intuition of control.

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So, I ended up believing that the main
reason why I've been involved in this movement

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for about fifteen years is that I really believe
that every single computer user,

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and that's a lot of people these days,

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should be in control over
their own computations.

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Everything you're doing with a device
which is mediated via software

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is controled by someone,
either it is you or it is someone else.

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And the best episode, the best narrative
to explain that to people

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that they've been using for quite a while
is this passage

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from the novel "Makers" by Cory Doctorow

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which is a bit long so I'm not gonna read it in detail,

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but essentially there is one character
of the novel which is Lester

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which is explaining to another character
the importance of controling

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your own devices, your own tools.

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The first example he takes is the example
of a hammer,

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a physical hammer,

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and he goes on saying that if you own
a hammer,

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essentially you could do
whatever you want with it.

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You can use it for its main purpose,

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or you can use it for something
completely different

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which was not meant to be its original
purpose but it's you that decide.

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He compares that another device
which is the "Disney in a box" in the novel

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and Disney in this book is the big evil
villain which is oppressing people

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and essentially Disney in a box is a
glorified 3D printer that can only print

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what Disney wants it to print for that day.

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One day, it will print a Goofy character,

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another day it will print Donald Duck,

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but it's not you who decides.

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It's Disney that decides what the printer
is gonna print for you that day.

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You own the device but you are
not in control of what the device does.

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The big quote for me is that if you don't
control your life, you're miserable.

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This notion of oppression is what has
been motivating me for all these years.

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So the fact that if you are not in control
of your own computation,

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then someone is oppressing you.

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Someone usually is the person or the company
or whatever that has created the software,

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that has the power to change that software
instead of you.

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This is something that really ??? in me.

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What was I doing at the time
with my computer?

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Well I was doing pretty standard stuff.

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I was using some hardware we had at the time

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which was mostly desktops and
local network servers.

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I didn't have a laptop because
it was really expensive for a student

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so I did get a laptop much later.

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I was doing some content production,
some content consumption.

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The kind of content I did produce
at the time was mostly

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office suites, desktop publishing
and this kind of stuffs.

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I was doing some communication, some email,
some IRC, some newsgroup

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which was really cool at the time
for geek communities.

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And I was doing some software development
as a newbie

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but it was what I was doing at the time.

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I also did some content consumption,
some gaming

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which are arguably some content that
someone else is producing for you to consume.

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I was doing some web browsing.

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Internet was not as popular as it is today,

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but there were some websites
you could find interesting.

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In that situation,
with this kind of computing,

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the actual path to software freedom
and to control was fairly clear.

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It was difficult, but it was fairly clear
to me as a new activist in free software.

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What I should have done, what we all should
have done to actually liberate people

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from the oppression of people controling
our own computation.

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The idea is that while you have
a lot of pieces of proprietary software

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which you do not control, what you need
to do is to replace

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every such a component of proprietary
software with a free software equivalent.

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Using some local application, some game,

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we need to replace it
with an equivalent free game.

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We were using some client-server software,
some mail ???, some mail client,

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some mail server, some IRC client,
some IRC server.

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What we needed to do to actually empower
people and liberate people was to rewrite

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those pieces of software with free software equivalents.

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It was difficult, because it was a lot of stuff
to be rewritten, but it was fairly clear.

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The plan was clear.

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And also, luckily, we also had, at the time,
all the heavy lifting was already in place.

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The GNU project existed since
quite a while,

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the Linux kernel existed already
and it was working.

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So someone else with shoulders larger
than I had at the time

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had already done a lot of work for me and me

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and together with other free software activists,
what I had to focus on was to rewrite

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proprietary application into equivalent
free software application, possibly better.

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That was clear, was hard,
but it was fairly clear.

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That's where, I think, the notion
of a free software project comes from.

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We use very often this term of free
software project and I never ended up

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really thinking about that before a few
years ago and I think the reason why

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we call it free software project is that
there is an objective.

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So there is a mission,
ideally a time-limited one,

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and that mission is writing a replacement
for a proprietary application using

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free software which is as good,
possibly better than the original.

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Having a lot of free software projects
around gives rise to a lot of releases.

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So what we were doing a lot at the time
in the 90s

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was to actually manually install
software on our own machines.

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To be fair, our lab was running
some Red Hat machines.

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At the time there weren't that
many packages available and

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we had to fairly often install stuff
by hand on the lab machines

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in our own directories and also
on our computers at home.

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This is a procedure you all know very well.

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You download a tarball, you run "configure",
you run "make", you run "make install".

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The first time I saw that, it was kind of
a magical recipe for me.

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Just follow these steps and you will get
some software to play with.

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Well, except that every single step
could fail, of course.

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Let's keep aside for the moment the fact
that the website might be down but,

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you run "configure" and you miss some software
you need to fetch from somewhere else.

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You run "make", you encounter some
compilation problem.

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You run "make install", maybe the path
will clash and so on and so forth.

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The problem with this procedure for
installing software we are using by hand

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is that you are essentially
conflicting roles.

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You're mixing together the role of
software user,

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the role of system administrator
and the role of software developper.

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You need to have a little bit of all those skills
together to be able to enjoy software.

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In a sense, a free software which works
like this is essentially a very elistist thing.

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It's only an elite which have
all the needed skills who is able to enjoy

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the benefits of free software and is able
to be in control of their own computation.

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This is essentially the reason why distributions
much earlier had been invented.

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We all know very well here
what distributions do,

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they sit in between software developpers
and software users and make it easy for you

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to actually use that software.

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We do installer work, we create installers,
we create package managers,

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we do all the integration work that make 
different pieces of software work well together.

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We actually make life easy for final users.

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So, for me, something that I started believing
is that the ultimate mission of free software

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distributions is to actually democratize
free software, to enable users

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which do not have software development skills
or do not have system administration skills,

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enable them to enjoy the benefit
of free software.

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We offer very simple interface,

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we offer the equivalent of what these days
are called appstores in which

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with one click, you can just install
some software and

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enjoy the benefit of that software,
in particular a free software.

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This is for me the historical mission
of distributions.

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Later on, in 1998, our lab decided
to switch to Debian

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and I was really happy about that.

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We switch from Red Hat to Debian and
I look out about this project,

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I start learning what this project does
and I find out that not only

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this project Debian was actually up to
the mission of empowering user

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by making it easy for users
to use free software.

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If you read the original announcement of
Ian Murdock announcing the Debian project,

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we'll find this notion of being competitive
with proprietary operating systems

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and it's really clear that the point is
empowering users.

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I end up reading about this project and
not only I found out that their mission

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they're up to is the mission I believe in,
but I found out that the key intuition there

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is to make the project a community project.

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Not only the target are the users 
and empowering them,

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but also the way to reach that objective
is creating, fostering a community

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that will work together to that goal.

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I got immediately hooked,

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I vividly remember the moment
a collegue of mine, a student

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explained to me the anatomy of
a Debian source package,

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the fact that it was a .orig.tar.gz,
the fact that it was a diff.gz

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with the differences with respect to upstream,
and all those metadata

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that was really thrilling for me
from a technical point of view.

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A few years later, I ended up joining
the nm-process.

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I was doing some OCaml development
at the time, there were some libraries,

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OCaml libraries in Debian, others were
missing and I said

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"Ok, maybe I should help and create
some libraries for the project as well".

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I went through nm and there are a few things
I've learned doing nm

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and also in the subsequent ten years
or fifteen years or so.

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One thing I've learned in all these years in
Debian is the importance of being principled.

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Debian is a project that did not start
from only technical means

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but also decided at some point that
they needed some guidance,

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some clear guidance of what it should do
technically and what it shouldn't.

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And an important document where we have
distilled this notion are the DFSG.

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The Debian Free Software Guidance

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which has been very influencial
on the free software movement as a whole.

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They've been used as a base for
the open source definition as you know,

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and what was very thrilling for me
is that commitment we had in Debian

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in keeping the main archive completely
DFSG-free, keeping it completely free software.

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This commitment is depicted here
by those fearsome character

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and his owner on a couch and it's mediating
and triggering the NEW queue, supposedly,

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and the NEW queue is not necessarily
the best way we could implement

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a system which triage all the software
in the archive and to ensure it's DFSG-free

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but it shows our commitment to actually
only follow the guidance we have set for ourselves.

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It was really motivating for me.

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The second thing I've learned and which
will come handy in a bit,

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is the importance of the legal knowledge
and legal geeks in the free software movement.

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Like it or not, free software as an ideal
is philosophical mean,

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but its main implementation is through the
legal system, is through copyright licenses.

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To really grok what's happening
in free software in general,

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to understand where the free software
movement is going, figuring out and

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really understand what's going on
in the legal system is very important.

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In Debian, we know that pretty well,
that's a stumbling block for many people

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when joining the Debian project.

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It's something we insist people are at least
basically familiar with and

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that's pretty characteristic
of the Debian project.

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In the end, what I've learned is that

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in this quest that I feel very much myself
against the oppression of someone else

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controling your own computation,
law, if you hack around it smartly,

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can be a very useful ally,
a very useful device to liberate users.

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Time passes − there was supposed to be an
image here, which for some reason disappeared.

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And, we might argue that, these days,
we have achieved a lot since that moment.

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If I look around the industry or, in general,
if I look around computing

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as people are doing that,
free software is a little bit everywhere.

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In the industry, there are some stats
that claim that essentially

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every single software product you find
on the market has, inside of it,

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a little bit of free software code.

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If you look at all the different application
stacks we have

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from webservers to education to clients
to smartphones,

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you find a lot of free software, free software
infrastructures that are everywhere.

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So these are just some stats I figure out
in the recent years

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and for instance if we look at one of the
key target market for Debian ???

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we'll find out one website over ten
on the Internet in general is running Debian.

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If we include also some of our most
popular derivatives such as Ubuntu,

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we'll find that more than 20%
of the websites

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are running something which comes
from our own work.

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And some of the recent hype on free software
is coming from the Snowden revelation

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and most people are starting to be concerned
about what the software they're using is doing

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and is turning to free software and is turning
to stuff like Tails which is heavily Debian-based

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to actually see in which way we can
help them foster their own security.

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In some sense, we have achieved a lot.

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In everything we do in computing,
there is a little bit of what we have done

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in free software and also a little bit
of what we have done in Debian.

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This is pretty impressive for me.

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We're in a place where I wouldn't have
dreamed being when I started in 1997.

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That's very impressive.

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On the other hand, there are some reasons
of concerns

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and this is the main thought
I wanted to share with you.

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There are some technical reasons which
we discuss often in free software circles

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like the fact that "Ok but most of these
platforms are not 100% free software".

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If you look at smartphones for instance,

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you will find a lot of non free code every here
and there and the point can be made that

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either you have full control over
your own computation,

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or you are not in control at all,

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because if your software stack has a single layer
which is controlled by someone else,

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and is mediating all your communication,
maybe you're not so sure

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that you are the real owner and
the real controller for your own device.

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That's a absolutely fair point.

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We can make some more technical points
about for instance non free JavaScript.

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More and more of our computations are
happening in our browsers

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and are happening through code which is
delivered to our browser

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by remote servers and this code
is not free at all.

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I absolutely agree with that but the point
I want to focus on today is actually

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what we call the cloud.

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All my images are gone.

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You had a very nice image there, sorry.

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The remaining point and my main reason of
concern is what is being called the cloud.

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Let allow me to be a bit generic here
for a moment.

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I know there are very different parts
in what we call the cloud

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and will be specific in all of them
in a bit.

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But for now I want to focus on the 
common trend that

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the cloud is bringing to computing
these days.

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Computing today, for most people, is not
much different from the kind of computing

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I was doing fifteen years ago.

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That's the kind of computing that we do
on very different hardware,

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we have way more smartphones, way more
tablets than in the past and that's true.

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But the kind of activities we do − producing
content, consuming content − is very similar.

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The big difference is the kind of
technological stack we're using

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and where the computations are happening.

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For most people today, the kind of
office suites we use is no longer

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a software which is installed on 
your machine but it is Google Docs.

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I'm an academic myself, I'm very often
forced to use some Google Docs applications

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to work with others, otherwise I'm free
not to work with them,

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because it's a technological choice
made by someone else.

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For many people, e-mail, as you know,
just means GMail.

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All our e-mails, even if your not
using GMail ourselves,

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are passing through some GMail servers.

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Asynchronous communications still exist,
but it is very often mediated

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to software like Skype or GTalk.

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And so on and so forth.

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You have seen this list very often.

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Consuming content, there as well,
we are still doing gaming,

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we are still doing browsing but it's often
mediated by platforms

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which are far away from us and just stream
content to us or,

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in the specific case of web browsing,
they are more and more often hosted

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by very few hosters in the world − which
we often refer to a walled garden −

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that can do whatever they want
with our content.

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The point here is not demonizing
those services.

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People are using those services because
they are convenient and

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there is a lot of network effect going on
that makes it easy for other people

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to start using those services.

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It's really not the point of demonizing
those services.

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The point here is observing that interesting
computations that we are doing

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as our job, as our life,

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are no longer happening on our machines,
but are happening on other machines

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which are far away from us and which
are not under our direct control.

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In this context, for me, I confess, what
actually is the road to software freedom

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and to control, to enable people
to control their own computation

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is no longer clear.

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It's no longer enough to say
"Well, we just need to rewrite

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Google or Facebook or Twitter
in free software".

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That's not enough, because even
if you do that, you have the problem

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that when you are using a server
you don't know if the code it is running

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is the one they claim it is running, so
that's a very difficult problem to solve.

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And even if it were the case,
where do you deploy yourself

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a Google-like architecture,
or a Facebook-like architecture?

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You simply can't.

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It is no longer enough to just say

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"We just need to do
some software development,

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we just need to make it better
than the alternative."

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There is a real tricky combination between
software development

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and software deployment which
not easy to see how to fix it.

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At least for me, it's very ???

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So, what about distros?

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We are distro people, doing one 
of the most popular distros in existence.

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Are we winning or are we losing
in this situation?

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How are we doing in terms of our efforts?

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In a sense, we are very much winning.

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A lot of our work is being used
to deploy those infrastructures.

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A lot of the infrastructure
of the big companies are deploying

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on top of free software, if not direct 
on top of our very own systems,

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maybe modified here and there where
they need to make things better

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as it is their own right
given it's all free software.

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In that sense, we're winning.

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We're increasing market share,

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??? are being used a lot
to make infrastructure.

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But we are also losing in the sense that
we are really not empowering users

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to be in control of 
their own computations.

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If our final users are the sysadmin
that are running those infrastructures,

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for them we are doing great.

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We are making them be sure

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they are in control
of their own infrastructure.

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But for the final users of those services,

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we are really not empowering them
at the moment.

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So what I call the free software dark ages,

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which is an expression I actually borrowed
from Bradley Kuhn and I find it quite inspiring,

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is a situation in which we win 
on the end user market

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so every single device out there
in the hand of people − desktop,

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laptop, even smartphones where right now
we are not doing very well −

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all of this is running free software.

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All of that is running Debian.

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So, total world domination as
we were talking about a long time ago.

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But all interesting computations,
all the final user application

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which is being used to bring on
with your digital life,

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are no longer happening on your devices,
happening far away from you

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on computer you do not control,
sometime with free software,

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sometime with non free software.

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But in any case, outside
of your own control.

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In a sense, this is very worrysome for me
because we have this euphoria of saying

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we are very popular.

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We are winning the war − we were using a lot
of this war-like terminology when I started.

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But the war we are winning seems to become
increasingly pointless

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because it's not being useful to actually
empower users to be in control

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of their own computation.

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To make things worse, there seems to be
some cultural problems that might be

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just a perception of mind, maybe I'm being
too pessimistic, but it seems to me that,

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as developper communities,
as hacker communities,

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we are becoming way more lenient,
way more lax

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about the lack of control on the tools and
on infrastructure we use

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to make free software.

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More and more often we see free software
developed on non-free infrastructure,

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meaning infrastructures which are built
using non-free software

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and which are anyhow centralized
in the hand of a few hosters.

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The new generation of developpers
which is coming up

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seems to be totally fine with that.

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I'm not gonna argue this point in much detail,
there is a great essay by Mako

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that I encourage all of you to read,
"Free software needs free tools",

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which actually make couple of points.

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One is that by using non-free software
to make free software,

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we are sending out a very bad message.

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We are telling to the world that
free software is good for you,

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that's why we are developing it,
but it's not good for us

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because we are using non-free tools
to make it.

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That's the kind of "catch 22"
in our advertising message,

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but it's also making the software
we are creating indirectly less free,

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because if the favorite way to contribute
to that free software

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is using some non free infrastructure,
some non free tools,

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indirectly we're making people 
that only want to use free software

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less apt to contribute to that software.

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So I really recommend reading that essay.

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But also technically, we are going back
to a sort of a cage problem,

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which is also a problem which is called 
"the problem of the bug that noone can fix"

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by the FSF I think, and essentially
we're creating software stacks

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in which some part of it is entirely
free software, that we can debug

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and some other parts are non free software
or software run by someone else,

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so we have lost the ability to debug
the full stack.

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00:26:05,960 --> 00:26:11,000
When I was starting to learn programming,
this idea that I could debug everything

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from the end user I was writing myself
for an assignment

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down to the kernel level
was just exciting for me.

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We seem to be losing sight of this,
a little bit.

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As a second cultural problem,
we seem to be losing sight of

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how much help we could get from
the legal system

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and from new legal solution that
we might be in need of finding.

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An example of that is the post open
source software "POSS" debate

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which some of you might have run into.

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00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,920
That's a debate which actually observes
that the new generation of

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00:26:44,160 --> 00:26:48,008
free software developpers actually
don't care about licenses.

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They just want to kick out their code,
just put it on GitHub,

439
00:26:51,643 --> 00:26:54,963
not declaring their license at all
and they're just fine with that.

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00:26:55,363 --> 00:27:00,883
They want to be ??? to have
the hassle of deciding first of all a license,

441
00:27:01,208 --> 00:27:04,403
second of all also some governance
model for their projects.

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00:27:04,483 --> 00:27:09,163
They just want to be hacking and doing,
and not caring about those annoying details.

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00:27:10,163 --> 00:27:15,523
This could be intervetedly interpreted
in positive ways like says that

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we want the right to work on the code and
to do whatever we want with that by default.

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00:27:22,763 --> 00:27:25,483
We do not want to be expliciting
which kind of rights we give and

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00:27:25,643 --> 00:27:27,603
that's a very positive interpretation
of this phenomenon.

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00:27:28,043 --> 00:27:32,083
But in the end, for now, it is creating
a huge bunch of code that

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we could not use as free software yet.

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For instance we cannot include in Debian
something that does not have a license at all.

450
00:27:39,523 --> 00:27:43,043
A second example is the debate about
the non-freeness of AGPL.

451
00:27:43,723 --> 00:27:49,923
If you look up the history of free software,
there is argument that GPL itself is not free.

452
00:27:50,003 --> 00:27:52,723
It's an argument that was being used
twenty years ago

453
00:27:52,763 --> 00:27:56,963
when the battle between copyleft and
liberalizing was very high, was very harsh.

454
00:27:57,403 --> 00:27:59,402
And it's just recurring again.

455
00:27:59,843 --> 00:28:04,123
So maybe for some syntactically
interpretation of our own guidance,

456
00:28:04,163 --> 00:28:08,123
we could make the point that something
like the AGPL is non-free, maybe.

457
00:28:08,603 --> 00:28:12,883
But the point is that the way we distribute
software to final users is really changing.

458
00:28:13,443 --> 00:28:18,123
Twenty years ago or fifteen years ago,
the main way to enable some user to use

459
00:28:18,363 --> 00:28:21,283
a piece of software was actually to make
a copy of that software and

460
00:28:21,283 --> 00:28:25,163
give it to him or to her via the network
or some media.

461
00:28:25,563 --> 00:28:29,163
And all those conveying,
that kind of conveying software is clearly

462
00:28:29,163 --> 00:28:34,483
distribution and that kind of activity used
to trigger some sort of license clauses.

463
00:28:34,723 --> 00:28:38,443
These days, a software is no longer
distributed that way, in large parts.

464
00:28:38,729 --> 00:28:44,683
It's being used over the net and something
like the AGPL is the equivalent of triggering

465
00:28:44,803 --> 00:28:48,203
some licensing condition via the main way
of distributing,

466
00:28:48,243 --> 00:28:50,123
of giving access to some software.

467
00:28:50,603 --> 00:28:53,453
I want to enter in details in this debate.

468
00:28:53,493 --> 00:28:56,283
Those are just examples, for me they are
examples of the fact that

469
00:28:56,283 --> 00:29:01,163
we are kind of losing faith in how much
the legal system and free software

470
00:29:01,203 --> 00:29:02,403
are intertwined.

471
00:29:02,922 --> 00:29:06,435
And this actually mixes very badly
with the situation in which

472
00:29:06,435 --> 00:29:10,324
users are losing control because those
computations are moving away from them.

473
00:29:10,683 --> 00:29:14,243
I think this situation, in general,
is not going to fix themselves

474
00:29:14,608 --> 00:29:18,403
and we, as distribution people,
have a role to play in fixing it.

475
00:29:19,723 --> 00:29:25,563
What could be a role for Debian in all this
computing situation we have these days.

476
00:29:27,813 --> 00:29:31,883
The common trend in the so called cloud
seems to be that computations

477
00:29:31,925 --> 00:29:33,844
are moving away from user devices.

478
00:29:34,643 --> 00:29:37,763
We cannot just say
"Well just don't use anything cloudy",

479
00:29:38,043 --> 00:29:40,083
because it is convenient, people will want
to use that.

480
00:29:40,243 --> 00:29:41,563
We need to do something different.

481
00:29:41,921 --> 00:29:46,291
As distribution people, we could do a lot,
I think, and I have a couple of thoughts

482
00:29:46,564 --> 00:29:53,683
to share with you that are different
depending on the so called service model

483
00:29:53,683 --> 00:29:54,643
of the cloud.

484
00:29:54,803 --> 00:29:57,521
One of the first service model of the cloud
you might have heard about is

485
00:29:57,685 --> 00:30:00,643
"Infrastructure as a Service" (IaaS) where
essentially you have servers that

486
00:30:00,849 --> 00:30:05,643
give virtual machines to people and
essentially you get to administer

487
00:30:05,763 --> 00:30:08,403
your own machine which is a virtual machine
on a virtual machine server

488
00:30:08,683 --> 00:30:10,206
controlled by someone else.

489
00:30:10,444 --> 00:30:14,243
This is potentially very good for people
because it is lowering the barrier

490
00:30:14,284 --> 00:30:16,323
you need to have your own server.

491
00:30:16,643 --> 00:30:21,083
When I first set up my own server
with friends, at the end of the 90's,

492
00:30:21,324 --> 00:30:24,883
we had to buy some machine, to find
someone kind enough to host it,

493
00:30:25,003 --> 00:30:27,523
pay the hosting fees and so on
and so forth.

494
00:30:27,723 --> 00:30:31,963
It was something that was by far not at all
accessible to the random user.

495
00:30:32,323 --> 00:30:37,045
These days, a lot of people can simply go
to some virtual machine provider, rent

496
00:30:37,283 --> 00:30:42,044
a virtual machine with one-click button and
they have their own machine to administer.

497
00:30:42,364 --> 00:30:46,164
Maybe they don't have the skill to
administer it, that's a different problem,

498
00:30:46,332 --> 00:30:50,403
but you are definitely lowering the barrier
to access, to have you own server

499
00:30:50,682 --> 00:30:52,563
and do your own remote computation.

500
00:30:53,083 --> 00:30:56,363
As Debian, we are doing pretty well
in this area, I think.

501
00:30:56,483 --> 00:31:00,206
We're offering technology like OpenStack
and other competitors of OpenStack,

502
00:31:00,403 --> 00:31:04,603
which seems to be the market leader on
that market which are entirely free software.

503
00:31:04,884 --> 00:31:09,963
But I think we should be investing more in
offering a trivial deployment experience

504
00:31:10,211 --> 00:31:11,364
for Debian users.

505
00:31:11,403 --> 00:31:15,765
We should make trivial for people
to have their own virtual machine servers.

506
00:31:15,765 --> 00:31:19,203
If they are not computer geeks, they should
be able to flock together friends

507
00:31:19,443 --> 00:31:25,523
which have system administration ability
and have their own local IaaS

508
00:31:25,723 --> 00:31:30,843
and have their own virtual machine without
having to rely on big hosters provided

509
00:31:30,923 --> 00:31:33,043
virtual machines to everyone in the world.

510
00:31:33,444 --> 00:31:36,523
This is a great step to our autonomy.

511
00:31:36,603 --> 00:31:40,683
As Debian, what is the best deployment
experience we can offer for people

512
00:31:40,724 --> 00:31:43,323
that want to setup their own virtual
machine servers.

513
00:31:44,163 --> 00:31:48,124
Then, there is another service model which
is called PaaS, "Platform as a Service".

514
00:31:48,163 --> 00:31:51,724
This is a kind of service model in which
essentially you have hosters

515
00:31:51,724 --> 00:31:55,724
of application engines, you develop
application targeting

516
00:31:55,724 --> 00:31:58,723
specific application engine.

517
00:31:59,273 --> 00:32:02,462
Sorry, application servers. You target
specific application servers.

518
00:32:02,462 --> 00:32:04,813
An exemple of this is Google App Engine.

519
00:32:05,683 --> 00:32:11,003
I think in some sense this service model
of the cloud is mostly orthogonal to

520
00:32:11,003 --> 00:32:15,123
what we do as a distribution because either
you're using a full fledge distribution

521
00:32:15,363 --> 00:32:19,243
and you do your own system administration,
or you are developping an application

522
00:32:19,363 --> 00:32:22,403
for a specific application server and
you rely on someone else

523
00:32:22,403 --> 00:32:23,963
to do that administration.

524
00:32:24,323 --> 00:32:28,003
So, yes, I think it's mostly orthogonal
to what we do, but might also be

525
00:32:28,117 --> 00:32:31,810
a symptom that there is a reject from the
application developper community,

526
00:32:31,883 --> 00:32:36,723
a reject from the way they can target
distributions like Debian.

527
00:32:37,123 --> 00:32:40,523
So if it is very difficult to have your own
application running properly on Debian

528
00:32:40,803 --> 00:32:45,523
because we have old software, because we
change libraries, because we do not accept

529
00:32:45,802 --> 00:32:48,483
multiple copies of the same libraries and
so on and so forth,

530
00:32:48,683 --> 00:32:51,364
if it is too difficult for application
developpers to target Debian,

531
00:32:51,729 --> 00:32:57,363
they might be more and more tempted
to target applications servers like PaaS.

532
00:32:57,763 --> 00:33:02,363
So there might be something we could do
about this, here, like finding better synergies

533
00:33:02,763 --> 00:33:06,443
between containerization technology,
we have some work being done in Debian,

534
00:33:06,443 --> 00:33:12,251
and the way we usually develop some,
we usually maintain a distribution.

535
00:33:12,251 --> 00:33:14,403
There might be something we could do
about this here.

536
00:33:14,733 --> 00:33:18,881
Oh, and I didn't mention this, but I have
no specific answer to give to you,

537
00:33:18,923 --> 00:33:22,683
just a train of thoughts I wanted to share
with you and what we could do

538
00:33:22,723 --> 00:33:23,963
to improve the situation.

539
00:33:25,244 --> 00:33:29,563
The final service model we have in the
cloud, which is I think worrysome

540
00:33:29,563 --> 00:33:34,723
from the point of view of user control,
is SaaS, "Software as a Service".

541
00:33:35,043 --> 00:33:39,283
There, essentially your own device,
your own computer only is thin client

542
00:33:39,664 --> 00:33:43,563
and rely entirely on a remote server
to do your own computation.

543
00:33:43,843 --> 00:33:48,208
We are back to the mainframe / thin client
distinction of the early days of computing

544
00:33:48,563 --> 00:33:52,963
and here, there is a lot we could do,
I think, but also a lot we could not do.

545
00:33:53,290 --> 00:33:55,963
Here, most of the work should come
from upstreams.

546
00:33:56,283 --> 00:33:59,883
We need better free software and federated
replacement for

547
00:34:00,003 --> 00:34:05,043
popular centralized proprietary applications
in which users can participate

548
00:34:05,203 --> 00:34:07,843
in some kind of network by using
their own node.

549
00:34:08,203 --> 00:34:12,763
This is work that should not come from
distribution itself, it should really come

550
00:34:12,763 --> 00:34:14,843
from application developpers upstream.

551
00:34:15,203 --> 00:34:18,083
But still, there are useful things
we could do here.

552
00:34:18,643 --> 00:34:21,083
We already have a lot of building blocks.

553
00:34:21,523 --> 00:34:26,883
We have stuff like Owncloud, Git-annex,
mediagoblin, pump.io, Yacy.

554
00:34:26,963 --> 00:34:31,123
We have a lot of good building blocks,
most of them are not yet up to par

555
00:34:31,203 --> 00:34:36,243
with the centralized proprietary equivalent,
but I'm confident we could get there.

556
00:34:36,604 --> 00:34:42,883
What we lack is the equivalent ease of
deployment of these services on user machines.

557
00:34:43,385 --> 00:34:50,003
In some sense, if we have democratized
the installation of software twenty years ago

558
00:34:50,203 --> 00:34:56,643
with distributions, these days, to face the
challenge of control of our own computation,

559
00:34:56,883 --> 00:35:00,723
we need to make it as easy as using a
package manager to install

560
00:35:01,003 --> 00:35:04,043
your own nodes using those applications.

561
00:35:04,443 --> 00:35:12,483
Ideally, everyone in the world without
nothing more than basic computer user skills

562
00:35:12,763 --> 00:35:17,323
should be able to have its own machine
at home doing some anonymous browsing,

563
00:35:17,563 --> 00:35:21,363
doing some mail handling, doing web hosting,
doing storage calendar,

564
00:35:21,563 --> 00:35:24,323
doing encrypted peer to peer backup,
and so and so forth.

565
00:35:24,723 --> 00:35:28,923
I'm maintaining my own mail server and it is
a user ???, I struggle myself

566
00:35:29,243 --> 00:35:33,443
to keep up with the need of knowledge and
of surveillance that I need to make

567
00:35:33,523 --> 00:35:39,203
to my own mail server to be able to run it
properly and I get blacklisted

568
00:35:39,243 --> 00:35:41,562
from time to time from providers and
it's a pain.

569
00:35:41,923 --> 00:35:47,091
Something that no one without having at least
some basic system administration ability

570
00:35:47,091 --> 00:35:48,723
could do properly.

571
00:35:49,043 --> 00:35:51,843
This is the thing we need,
the nut we need to crack.

572
00:35:52,163 --> 00:35:55,963
We need to empower everyone out there
to have its own computer with

573
00:35:56,003 --> 00:35:58,243
its own node of those services.

574
00:35:58,323 --> 00:36:00,483
Of course, you are all thinking of
the FreedomBox now.

575
00:36:00,843 --> 00:36:06,363
That's a great example of a project who
wants to tackle precisely that problem.

576
00:36:06,803 --> 00:36:11,003
It's a project that's been announced by
Eben Moglen a few years ago at a Debconf

577
00:36:11,083 --> 00:36:12,683
if my memory serves me well.

578
00:36:13,043 --> 00:36:17,443
It's heavily based on Debian and it's doing
exactly that.

579
00:36:18,283 --> 00:36:21,523
But my question from the Debian
point of view is:

580
00:36:21,603 --> 00:36:25,123
maybe this project should not only be
a spin-off of Debian,

581
00:36:25,283 --> 00:36:29,723
should not only be a derivative distribution
of Debian,

582
00:36:29,848 --> 00:36:33,883
maybe we should think at making something
like this a first class citizen in Debian.

583
00:36:34,243 --> 00:36:38,603
I don't know exactly what that means yet,
it's something we could think about

584
00:36:38,603 --> 00:36:41,328
having the main administration interface
for Debian something

585
00:36:41,363 --> 00:36:43,203
that targets these specific scenarios.

586
00:36:43,203 --> 00:36:47,843
We could generalize that, we do not need
to target only specific plug devices

587
00:36:48,243 --> 00:36:51,603
because people at home might have desktop
computers, might have media center.

588
00:36:51,763 --> 00:36:55,924
They might want something like the
FreedomBox at home and

589
00:36:55,963 --> 00:36:57,523
collaborate with others immediately.

590
00:36:57,963 --> 00:37:02,443
My point here is that if our mission back
in the days was to

591
00:37:02,683 --> 00:37:06,843
democratize free software by making it
easier to install software

592
00:37:06,949 --> 00:37:10,483
on your machine, today our mission is to
democratize free software by making it

593
00:37:10,483 --> 00:37:15,815
trivial to install some node of some
federation of free services on your machine.

594
00:37:18,243 --> 00:37:20,963
Another thing we could do,
it is the last one for me today,

595
00:37:21,323 --> 00:37:23,882
is to step in the free service debate.

596
00:37:24,323 --> 00:37:28,244
When I started looking up these arguments
a few years back, I was surprised by

597
00:37:28,244 --> 00:37:33,323
the fact that it's still not clear what
it does mean to be a free service.

598
00:37:34,723 --> 00:37:37,243
When I started working on free software
fifteen years ago,

599
00:37:37,403 --> 00:37:39,735
it was fairly clear what does
free software mean.

600
00:37:39,923 --> 00:37:43,483
Sure, it was some terminology debate
between free software and open source

601
00:37:43,523 --> 00:37:44,643
which still exists today,

602
00:37:44,926 --> 00:37:48,443
but the basic freedoms, the basic rights
you should have to call something

603
00:37:48,511 --> 00:37:51,083
free and open source was fairly clear.

604
00:37:51,443 --> 00:37:54,643
That kind of intellectual debate had
already happened at the time.

605
00:37:54,963 --> 00:37:59,490
Today, where the problem of computations
moving away from indivual user

606
00:37:59,770 --> 00:38:02,643
is raging, there is no clear consensus
on that matter.

607
00:38:03,083 --> 00:38:07,603
There is some great work, for instance
there is the Franklin Street statement on

608
00:38:07,603 --> 00:38:10,445
free network service,
I think that's a full ???,

609
00:38:10,643 --> 00:38:16,283
dating back to 2008, six years ago, in
which you find a lot of very useful

610
00:38:16,763 --> 00:38:21,963
recommendations for users, for software
developpers and for system administrators

611
00:38:22,043 --> 00:38:27,364
to make sure that you maximize your control
over your own computation on the network,

612
00:38:27,563 --> 00:38:32,483
but they take no stance on what it does mean
to be a free service.

613
00:38:33,603 --> 00:38:37,883
Is it enough to have something which is free,
do you need more specific license.

614
00:38:37,964 --> 00:38:40,883
There are some recommendation
on that point, but still,

615
00:38:41,123 --> 00:38:42,923
there are no clear answers
to this question.

616
00:38:45,083 --> 00:38:50,803
There is another work by RMS in 2010
about Software as a Service or

617
00:38:51,123 --> 00:38:53,163
"service as a software substitute"
as he calls it.

618
00:38:53,483 --> 00:38:57,333
Here, essentially what you have is a main
recommandation about

619
00:38:57,403 --> 00:39:00,844
not using Software as a Service at all.

620
00:39:01,363 --> 00:39:04,724
Essentially there is a recommandation of
doing your own computation

621
00:39:04,763 --> 00:39:06,243
on your own machines.

622
00:39:06,684 --> 00:39:11,203
I think that might be a generally good
recommandation but it's not gonna scale,

623
00:39:11,646 --> 00:39:14,483
it's not gonna be enough in my opinion
to convince people

624
00:39:14,525 --> 00:39:16,603
not to use very convenient services.

625
00:39:16,923 --> 00:39:21,123
Think we need more gradual and blurry
lines saying, encouraging people

626
00:39:21,271 --> 00:39:25,644
to keep computation closer to them,
to rely on federation of friends of people

627
00:39:25,843 --> 00:39:27,484
to do computation together.

628
00:39:27,563 --> 00:39:31,371
And we, as distribution people, could
make easier for them to do so.

629
00:39:31,883 --> 00:39:36,323
And then there is another work which is
"Network Services Aren't Free or Nonfree"

630
00:39:36,763 --> 00:39:40,723
which is a couple of years later, still by RMS,
which essentially tries to walk the fine line

631
00:39:40,963 --> 00:39:44,083
between what's the difference between
a pure service, so a service that

632
00:39:44,203 --> 00:39:47,643
just for instance convey messages,
as opposed to a service which does

633
00:39:47,643 --> 00:39:51,363
computation that could have been
done instead on your machine.

634
00:39:51,523 --> 00:39:55,724
That's a very fine line to work, it's very
difficult to stay there and

635
00:39:55,724 --> 00:40:01,049
what we might need there is a strong
opposition, actually, and we should try

636
00:40:01,291 --> 00:40:05,203
to replace everything which is centralized
with federated equivalent and say that

637
00:40:05,203 --> 00:40:08,945
we as free software people and distribution
people should work in that direction.

638
00:40:09,963 --> 00:40:11,284
So what we could do in Debian.

639
00:40:11,284 --> 00:40:13,611
Well, I think we should try to step
in this debate.

640
00:40:13,875 --> 00:40:20,283
Surprisingly for me, we still have no clear
answer to what it means to be a free service

641
00:40:20,283 --> 00:40:24,283
today and we have quite a bit of
experience in Debian

642
00:40:24,323 --> 00:40:27,203
in leading debates in free sotfware.

643
00:40:27,203 --> 00:40:29,764
We have created the DFSG which is being
used as an example for

644
00:40:29,964 --> 00:40:34,123
many other communities, we have participated
in the GPLv3 discussion for instance.

645
00:40:34,283 --> 00:40:39,124
Our decisions in terms of free license
are looked up by other projects.

646
00:40:39,363 --> 00:40:43,003
So we might have the authority and
the reputation to step in this debate

647
00:40:43,211 --> 00:40:46,569
and we also have a lot of technical
knowledge in the area.

648
00:40:47,043 --> 00:40:52,803
Being a distribution commited to free software,
we know a thing or two not only about

649
00:40:53,043 --> 00:40:58,763
software freedom, but also about how you
deploy software, how difficult it is

650
00:40:58,763 --> 00:41:01,524
and how difficult it should be for people
to deploy free software.

651
00:41:01,843 --> 00:41:06,083
So I think we are in just the sweet spot
to actually enter this debate

652
00:41:06,523 --> 00:41:10,604
with the needed authority and make
a contribution to actually help people

653
00:41:10,803 --> 00:41:13,566
realize what it means today
to use a free service.

654
00:41:14,963 --> 00:41:16,283
The concluding question
I have for you is

655
00:41:16,523 --> 00:41:21,324
"What's Debian take today
on liberating users?".

656
00:41:21,763 --> 00:41:26,384
Would we be happy enough to have Debian
on every machine in the world

657
00:41:26,565 --> 00:41:29,324
if people are using completely
remote services?

658
00:41:29,684 --> 00:41:33,763
And if we were not, what should we do,
what should we be working on to change

659
00:41:34,003 --> 00:41:37,963
that future which seems very much
the future that we have at hand.

660
00:41:39,524 --> 00:41:47,083
Pictures are gone, so there was a cloud
on the left,

661
00:41:47,643 --> 00:41:50,204
there was Debian here and a sun here.

662
00:41:50,523 --> 00:41:54,364
LaTeX, beamer or Tikz or something
is playing tricks on me.

663
00:41:55,004 --> 00:41:58,683
So that's all I have for you, I hope
I've given you some food for thoughts

664
00:41:58,924 --> 00:42:03,324
for this week and if you have any question
or comments in these topics,

665
00:42:03,523 --> 00:42:05,084
I'm very much happy to hear about that.

666
00:42:05,604 --> 00:42:06,483
Thank's a lot.

667
00:42:06,643 --> 00:42:15,563
[applause]

668
00:42:23,123 --> 00:42:25,923
There seems to be a mic which is floating
around down there.

669
00:42:43,564 --> 00:42:49,963
[Q] ??? quite a lot and quite brilliantly
about what cloud computing buzzwords

670
00:42:50,203 --> 00:42:57,603
mean for free software, but I think what important
battle we are actually losing is ???

671
00:42:57,687 --> 00:42:58,723
in the minds of people.

672
00:42:58,924 --> 00:43:02,243
[Q] Why is it young developpers or
newcommers to free software

673
00:43:02,484 --> 00:43:05,603
don't care about software being free?

674
00:43:07,043 --> 00:43:11,603
[Q] Why don't they care about using non free
tools, why don't they care about

675
00:43:11,843 --> 00:43:17,683
which license declare for their software
if any license is at all? and so on.

676
00:43:18,043 --> 00:43:22,883
[Q] You mention that problem, but what do
we do about it? Do you have any ideas?

677
00:43:25,403 --> 00:43:28,843
[Zack] Well, a friend of mine we asked
a similar question I think once answered

678
00:43:29,283 --> 00:43:32,003
"What could they say more that
'Oh those young kids' ".

679
00:43:32,803 --> 00:43:37,123
So, I don't know, maybe it's our fault,
maybe we have failed as a generation

680
00:43:37,163 --> 00:43:40,883
to convey the importance that being
in control of our own computation had,

681
00:43:41,164 --> 00:43:45,923
or maybe it's just that the public that
is open to coding and

682
00:43:45,923 --> 00:43:49,643
hacking is much larger than in the past so
we are reaching out other communities.

683
00:43:50,331 --> 00:43:54,523
It's very good for them to be coding because
I think every citizen in the world need

684
00:43:54,523 --> 00:43:58,283
to have basic knowledge of coding to
understand what's happening in the world,

685
00:43:58,643 --> 00:44:02,363
but maybe they just have different mission
than we had in the past.

686
00:44:04,969 --> 00:44:07,403
So, very good question, I don't have
a very good answer, sorry.

687
00:44:10,803 --> 00:44:11,923
[Q] Hello.

688
00:44:17,513 --> 00:44:22,044
Thank you so much for the wonderful talk,
I think it's great to talk about these

689
00:44:22,284 --> 00:44:29,403
political issues and I see there's a challenge
between the sort of very individual focus

690
00:44:29,563 --> 00:44:34,166
of each person being able to use their own
computer as the wish which has its own values,

691
00:44:35,003 --> 00:44:39,603
but there's a different sort of value that
relates to power structures in general.

692
00:44:40,003 --> 00:44:46,163
So, we're talking about not just how free
is each individual person but whether

693
00:44:46,483 --> 00:44:50,567
an entity like Twitter, Google or Facebook
or some these other services

694
00:44:50,603 --> 00:44:57,164
is a very powerful entity that has power over
the majority of us who use their services.

695
00:44:57,884 --> 00:45:02,963
And so, I wonder if and I'd like your
thoughts on thinking about it

696
00:45:03,083 --> 00:45:09,764
less as a "Is this software free?" but
about "Who is in power in the community?"

697
00:45:09,843 --> 00:45:16,371
and so in a democratic sense, you could have
the community that builds the tools together

698
00:45:16,371 --> 00:45:23,404
as government structures or as mechanisms
for handling power that make the power

699
00:45:23,404 --> 00:45:28,723
bottom-up and more democratic and maybe
that's more important than

700
00:45:28,723 --> 00:45:31,443
the technical status of each
individual user.

701
00:45:32,563 --> 00:45:36,449
[Zack] So, as a concerned citizen and also
as a political activist,

702
00:45:36,564 --> 00:45:39,011
I very much share your concern.

703
00:45:39,403 --> 00:45:46,484
I think we need to focus on what is in
reach on us as geeks in this circle

704
00:45:46,723 --> 00:45:49,324
and have this kind of discussion
in a different circle.

705
00:45:49,607 --> 00:45:54,803
So, as someone with activity in politics
and as a geek, I very much try

706
00:45:54,803 --> 00:45:58,723
to actually explain to politicians and
to activists the role of

707
00:45:58,843 --> 00:46:03,003
what we are doing here in very technical
ways and the impact that it has

708
00:46:03,083 --> 00:46:04,363
on politics in general.

709
00:46:04,884 --> 00:46:07,283
And I think the ??? the talk later on
this evening might have

710
00:46:07,363 --> 00:46:09,163
a thing or two to say about that as well.

711
00:46:09,523 --> 00:46:15,283
So from our part we need to understand it
in some sense even if

712
00:46:15,283 --> 00:46:19,404
we advance a lot the status quo of user
control of technology

713
00:46:19,444 --> 00:46:21,123
that we had thirty years ago.

714
00:46:21,403 --> 00:46:24,483
We have also started to lag behind
many other areas.

715
00:46:24,803 --> 00:46:28,804
Something that I wanted to mention before
but I fail to do so is that

716
00:46:28,843 --> 00:46:32,724
when I was doing my computing in the
nineties, a lot of computations

717
00:46:32,843 --> 00:46:34,803
were mediated by clearly defined
protocols.

718
00:46:35,403 --> 00:46:40,083
So we had RFCs or equivalent documents
by other organisations which were like

719
00:46:40,243 --> 00:46:45,364
clearly marked paths to how to collaborate
technically on the internet

720
00:46:45,603 --> 00:46:47,219
and how to make software talk together.

721
00:46:47,763 --> 00:46:54,644
In a sense, that culture of interoperability
of protocols has actually started lagging

722
00:46:54,763 --> 00:46:57,403
behind a lot with respect
to popular technology.

723
00:46:57,803 --> 00:47:02,923
So stuff like social networks, most of them
except the good ones that free software guys

724
00:47:03,163 --> 00:47:08,764
try to build like pump.io or like diaspora,
well all those technologies started up

725
00:47:09,003 --> 00:47:12,203
without any kind of interoperability
in mind.

726
00:47:12,723 --> 00:47:18,123
So technically I think we need to push
again on the direction of interoperability

727
00:47:18,165 --> 00:47:21,523
of protocols, and that's a technical
contribution that we could do that

728
00:47:21,603 --> 00:47:22,804
will have an impact.

729
00:47:22,883 --> 00:47:26,683
You know, code is law, as Lessig was saying,
and that would have a technical impact

730
00:47:26,723 --> 00:47:28,363
on the power structures you mention.

731
00:47:28,803 --> 00:47:30,603
That's my thought on this matter.

732
00:47:33,403 --> 00:47:35,563
[Q] I have an answer.

733
00:47:35,563 --> 00:47:36,563
Hello.

734
00:47:36,604 --> 00:47:40,083
I have an answer, sort of an answer
to the previous question.

735
00:47:40,325 --> 00:47:46,563
This is of course the heart of the difference
between free software and open source.

736
00:47:47,043 --> 00:47:50,683
The difference between free software and
open source isn't nothing at all

737
00:47:50,883 --> 00:47:53,043
and it's not about licenses.

738
00:47:53,483 --> 00:47:55,603
It's about goals and aims.

739
00:47:56,043 --> 00:48:05,245
Over the past decades, many of us have
chosen not to pick a fight with

740
00:48:05,524 --> 00:48:11,963
open source people just for an easy life and,
you know, it's always easy to have somebody

741
00:48:12,402 --> 00:48:17,204
who might share some of your goals and
to be able to collaborate with them.

742
00:48:17,723 --> 00:48:20,818
But less and less is it becoming
the case that

743
00:48:21,723 --> 00:48:27,446
the goals of people who are doing open
source are the same as the goals

744
00:48:27,643 --> 00:48:29,283
of people doing free software.

745
00:48:29,803 --> 00:48:35,124
You can see that very clearly
in the responses from people like

746
00:48:35,124 --> 00:48:37,003
Google to things like the AGPL.

747
00:48:37,683 --> 00:48:39,563
And there are a lot of examples.

748
00:48:41,011 --> 00:48:45,203
So, one of the things that we can do
to try and bring some of

749
00:48:45,363 --> 00:48:49,243
the new crop of developpers along with us
is to actually make it

750
00:48:49,324 --> 00:48:51,483
a bit more of a fuss about…

751
00:48:52,243 --> 00:48:55,118
You know, let's not come ??? all Stallman
about that,

752
00:48:55,118 --> 00:49:00,403
Stallman is not the best PR guy, but I think
Debian can do a lot better than he can

753
00:49:00,626 --> 00:49:03,243
and we've probably got
a lot more credibility.

754
00:49:03,923 --> 00:49:06,043
And individually, we have as well.

755
00:49:06,443 --> 00:49:15,004
What we need to do is we need to explain
our vision to those new developpers

756
00:49:15,244 --> 00:49:21,843
who mostly are just being, you know, they
see an open source marketing machine

757
00:49:22,123 --> 00:49:23,363
and we are something different.

758
00:49:25,583 --> 00:49:26,485
[Zack] Thanks.

759
00:49:26,485 --> 00:49:30,118
So there's not need to be questions and
answers, so if you have comments, feel free.

760
00:49:31,433 --> 00:49:34,323
[Talkmeister] I think we're running short of
time and we need to take one more question.

761
00:49:35,003 --> 00:49:37,843
So maybe one last or, Stefano, one last?

762
00:49:38,403 --> 00:49:38,963
[Talkmeister] We can.

763
00:49:39,843 --> 00:49:41,483
Ok, one last question or comment?

764
00:49:41,803 --> 00:49:43,684
[Q] Just a quick comment if I may.

765
00:49:43,963 --> 00:49:48,603
You talked about federated services and
facebook and dropbox and that sort of thing.

766
00:49:49,163 --> 00:49:55,683
I think maybe the issue here is less about
federated services but is about identity.

767
00:49:56,564 --> 00:50:02,043
If I have my own dropbox alike and you have
your own dropbox alike,

768
00:50:02,197 --> 00:50:05,730
the problem is not that the two couldn't
talk to each other,

769
00:50:05,923 --> 00:50:11,524
we have no way of negotiation of identity
authentication, access kind of problem.

770
00:50:11,923 --> 00:50:14,203
I think maybe part of the answer to your
question is

771
00:50:14,323 --> 00:50:18,043
"Can we come up with some way of allowing
federated identity management

772
00:50:18,243 --> 00:50:22,243
for people in general and just us say".

773
00:50:23,163 --> 00:50:27,363
[Zack] I think this is very much related
to what I was answering before to Aaron,

774
00:50:27,723 --> 00:50:28,963
in the sense "yes we could".

775
00:50:29,405 --> 00:50:33,486
We have shown in the past that we can
come up with very smart protocols

776
00:50:33,486 --> 00:50:36,603
that allow people to technically
interoperate over the net.

777
00:50:36,963 --> 00:50:40,644
But we are coming to late for that.

778
00:50:40,923 --> 00:50:44,972
Those big entities which now have the power
to attract a lot of users to them

779
00:50:45,244 --> 00:50:49,123
developped before those standard
that we could have used to make

780
00:50:49,404 --> 00:50:53,163
smaller entities interoperate could
have been put in place.

781
00:50:53,529 --> 00:50:57,243
So yes, I agree with you, there is technical
work to be done but in some sense

782
00:50:57,243 --> 00:51:01,883
we are late in doing that work and
the question now is not only

783
00:51:02,124 --> 00:51:05,923
"How could we do the technical work that
allows us to have smaller entities

784
00:51:05,923 --> 00:51:10,203
that interoperate for authentication or
everything else?" and also

785
00:51:10,483 --> 00:51:15,563
"How do we migrate from the status quo to
the ideal world that would be possible

786
00:51:15,603 --> 00:51:17,643
if those standards existed
in the first place?".

787
00:51:18,206 --> 00:51:22,483
So in a sense I think we are a bit late
and we have twice the work to be done

788
00:51:22,763 --> 00:51:26,083
before reaching the optimal and more
federated situation which I think

789
00:51:26,243 --> 00:51:27,443
would solve the problem.

790
00:51:29,963 --> 00:51:31,444
So, thanks a lot.

791
00:51:31,603 --> 00:51:39,833
[applause]