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Yeah, I am happy that some people made it here
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I'm happy that there's still seats free on the team
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I started this very late, and I'm tired
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and these are my thoughts, and I think probably go through them and see what we do then.
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Oh, yeah, I didn't do this part,
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I can do it after this talk, I think
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So, there was strong feedback from people from the team
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which are actually not here at the moment
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they don't want to discuss now
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maybe define the time for discussion
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other people are fine to discuss
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still, they like the DebConf - "The view is fantastic".
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(space, please, Luca)
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I'd say time, but this is my (please continue)...
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Then, at night, Phil Hands brought the idea
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of DebConf at Frankfurt/Hahn
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which is the airport close to Frankfurt
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and there are conference facilities, is easy to reach
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and would be different.
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My reply was, basically, (please press space)
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"Stop smoking crack".
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And to which, Phil replied:
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[screen]: "You or me?"
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Because... It can be seen from very different view angles.
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Who has been to a DebConf which wasn't good?
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Wow.
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Ah! So you have...
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Anyway, so most people have been to only to good DebConfs, which is great.
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Who was skeptical of DebConf13 before coming here?
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Who stays unconvinced and thinks this wasn't a good DebConf?
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OK
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And yes, this should absolutely not be about DebConf13
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originally, my slides started after this one
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I didn't to have anything about it.
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But people I guess made me to add this.
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As we all experienced, or, who experienced this DebConf
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or also other DebConfs, our decision making process is quite often way too painful
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I think it's because it's not documented
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it's not a clear process, there are no clear responsabilities
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no way how to make decisions.
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We all know this.
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And this is personally the perception.
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For some months I had the impression that the Chairs were asked to decide everything.
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And in the last days or weeks, I had rather the impression that the Chairs were ignored.
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And that's not good.
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So, DebConf is Debian,
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Debian has these foundation documents
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the Constitution, the Debian Free Software Guidelines.
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But some other important documents that define how it all works
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but DebConf has only Wiki pages and a "Manual" category.
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Which is something, but very little.
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And different people have different interpretation
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as to how DebConf works.
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Not only they have different ideas on how it should work
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but also different interpretations to what we agreed
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how it shall work.
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And...
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When I shared this slides with Gunnar and Moray,
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and got feedback from Gunnar only,
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that he absolutely prefers "decision structure" rather than "governance"
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because DebConf is Debian, and because we have a governance
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...And he has a point.
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The current delegation was done by Zack two years ago.
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Delegating Gunnar, Moray and me
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as DebConf chairs.
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With the text, "The main responsibility of the DebConf chairs
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is to act as a liason between
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the Debian Project and the DebConf organization.
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In that capacity, the Chairs will be responsible
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to the project for the DebConf organization
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on Debian resources.
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For example money, but also the Debian name are used to that end.
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DebConf organization itself does not need to change
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in response to this new delegation
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and the former DebConf team is free
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as it always has been to establish its own structure
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and decision mechanisms.
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The Chairs are expected to help the team
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in establishing those things
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and to break decision ties
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if and when they occur."
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This is a very...
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Very wide delegation
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It leaves many things open.
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I talked with Zack what he intended about this
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and he told me he wanted to spell out that DebConf is Debian
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and clarifying who is responsible for Debian resources usage.
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And...
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That was very much needed:
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clarify that DebConf is Debian
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and there's no doubt about this.
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I'm very thankful for this.
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And of course, DebConf is also not Debian
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there are differences between
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or... DebConf works quite different from other Debian projects.
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But then, all Debian projects
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are in several ways different than the other.
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So there is still a difference
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but it's not on the
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identical, or the...
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we still are part of the same project,
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even though there are different sub-projects.
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And I think probably the DebConf team
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doesn't really need to be redefined
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but rather formalized, probably
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as I think we agreed that people who are here
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or who want to be here as a team
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but it's completely not clear how to become a team member.
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So, idea 1: anybody on the list, the IRC channels is on the team.
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Next.
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Idea 2: Formal process to join and leave,
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for example, public mail to the list
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auto acceptance by default
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and the Chairs/delegates can
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put this on hold or deny it.
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And yearly after DebConf it is cleared by the team or the chairs.
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And we maintain the list on a
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public repository.
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Would be one idea.
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The other is the same, except
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that it's not auto-accepted, but
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one existing team member needs to advocate.
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Next.
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Or, instead of Chair delegation, what about Team delegation?
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And then the team is free to add more members to it
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how they fit
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this would be the same as the previous idea
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and the DPL can deny those.
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There are many different ways to form the team.
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Other suggestions?
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David: So, you started by stating a problem
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which is that making decisions within DebConf is painful
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to which I agree.
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But... Is this working towards a solution to that problem?
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Is that the goal that you have in talking
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about the team formation process?
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Holger: I have that goal, but I don't think
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we can reach it today.
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David: OK.
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Arne: I believe this is going quite in
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the direction of the goal.
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Because one problem that we had
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at least in the last round of discussions
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was that there were quite different people
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in different sessions
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and the same problems got reiterated
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quite a number of times because people
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had not been involved in previous decisions
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and then the next time that the "make decisions" came
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they tried to intervene on already made decisions.
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David: So, it's the idea is that, if the team
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was well defined by some mechanism
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you could say the team,
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you would be in a better position to say that the team
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has decided something.
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Gaudenz: I have my doubts.
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I think that if formalizing the team membership
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leads to more of a feeling of responsability
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for the team on the side of the members
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and there is more continuity in the meetings
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it might be a good thing, but
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the problem Arne stated is more
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of continuity pf team between different meetings.
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And I think that if you can solve that
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fuzzy border, then the team is no longer a problem.
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Holger: I agree. I think defining the team
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is part of many things we need to do.
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Steve: Right, this is something that I spoke with Holger
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about, over the course of the leadup to DC13
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where I was feeling personally that
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I had opinions about things
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but I didn't feel I was necessarily a part
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of the teams, I wasn't involved in DC13 organization,
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and I did have concerns about some things
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but I didn't know what was right.
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Should I even be voting if things are being voted on?
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Should I be participating in discussions and on the IRC meetings?
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It's very difficult for people to know
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with the existing setup
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how much they should participate, how much loud they should be
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and I think having a clear idea who's in and who's out
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means that we have a clearer process of making decisions
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because the situation now is that,
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anybody that feels strongly enough about an issue
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to make noise about it, effectively
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moves the needle on where the consensus is
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and I don't think that actually makes sense
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to have people who have strong opinions
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about a particular issue
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show up and argue, if they are not participating
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in the DebConf team the rest of the time.
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And I also think that
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if we have this idea of "you are part of the team",
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it's also social pressure on people who might
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otherwise just drift away bit by bit,
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to stay involved.
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So, think about it in the terms of the
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Ubuntu Code of Conduct,
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the idea that if you are no longer doing a role,
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you step down gracefully.
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And I think having this more formalized idea of a team
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helps with ensuring that people recognize
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that, OK, this is a responsability that I have.
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And if I'm not living up to that responsability
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I should step down,
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so that the remaining members of the team know
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they should make decisions without me.
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And in that way, having a more...
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a shared understanding
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of what the team's structure is
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whereas right now we have this kind of
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amorphous group of people who show up on IRC
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and participate on some meetings or others
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and have the effect of...
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Holger: I'd like to stop this discussion
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as I have some more stuff prepared.
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I also... What I haven't put in here, but I realize
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It's absolutely vital that we get members
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new people easily on the team.
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Like Raphael.
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Nobody knew him eight months before
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Or maybe two or three people
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and he was a super good team member
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so it must be super easy for new members to join the team
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every year
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and I really would like to continue
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unless you really insist on saying something.
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Gaudenz: I have just one alternative suggestion
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I don't think we have to discuss it, just that it's noted.
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We might also want to think about having
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something similar or the same to the process
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that we kind of established
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for adding new members to the
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DebConf team subversion repository.
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Which is that, each year there should be
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one admin from the local team
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that is trusted by the global organization
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allowed to add local team members.
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Holger: I think this SVN access is derived
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from the team membership
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but anyhow...
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Next slide, please.
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I don't know how many people remember the times
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when this was the Debian motto.
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Was in the mid- and end- 1990s
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So, "rough consensus and working code".
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And, for Debian it's probably easy,
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because "working code" is quite easy to define
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exit(0);
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Next slide, please.
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So, what is consensus?
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Idea 1: Consensus is when we all agree.
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Consensus means "decision by a clear majority"
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Hmmm....
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Next slide,
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"Consensus means an absence of significant dissent"
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Maybe that?
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Next one?
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Other suggestions?
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No, no, no, no, please let me continue with this!
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Or use the microphone, but you don't get it.
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[laughter]
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Next slide.
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And yes, this also needs to be formally documented.
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What does it mean?
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To some, 8 people agreeing, 1 vocally disagreeing
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and 2 a bit unsure, is a consensus.
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But Debian is a diverse community.
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So this is not true for all.
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So we need to document this.
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Really, really, really, really, really.
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Even if we were mostly white males.
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[laughter]
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Which we are not.
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And we, in Debian, will change in the future too.
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So our assumption now might work today for a group,
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but will not work
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in whatever time.
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Final decisions.
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Debian is a project where Debian via delegates or GR
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has the final decision power.
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And, this is required by the constitution (8.3 + 4.1.4).
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Please read it out if you want to.
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And this means that nothing is final.
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Like the only final thing is death.
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Death is final.
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In the sense that, if you fuck up,
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delegates or GR might override you.
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There are and there have been many
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final and good decisions.
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The view on the lake is fantastic.
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Thank you!
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Now, some more random ideas...
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So, maybe the term "Advisory board" might
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make things clearer than "Chairs"?
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Or maybe redefine things:
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Is an Advisor something else than a Chair?
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No matter what name we choose,
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we also need to define the procedures
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Maybe "Steering board" is better than "Chairs" or "Advisory board"
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It's, again, something different.
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Then there is also the DebConf Committee.
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Which are those people who
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are entitled to reach the decision
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where the next DebConf will be.
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And there would also be the option to keep that name.
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And another idea which could be implemented
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is, LCA has "ghosts", who are previous organizers
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which are happy to help running next conferences.
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And they also do, after LCA directly,
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a handover from the previous team to the next team
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including some ghosts.
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That would mean that, whatever, 20 people
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of us, or maybe 10, I have no idea
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meet after this DebConf or the next one
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meet for one or two days,
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maybe just at one house here, or somewhere else
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...whatever details, and plan the next conference.
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Seems to work well for LCA.
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I have here...
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Lucas: Yes, so... That is probably useful
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But that does not sound like there is
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a core issue we want to address.
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It is about sharing experience,
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I think we are not too bad at that
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I mean, the fact that the next
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DebConf team members are attending
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the previous one also helps that.
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It is just a different way to the same thing.
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Holger: Yes, it's just an idea
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one detail to make things
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more smooth.
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Yes. And no matter no model we choose,
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the real important part is that everybody
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understands the same and can live with it,
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and that future generations will do the same.
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And this maybe sounds easy
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I don't think it sounds easy, actually.
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Yeah, but... (Please press space)
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I think (press space once again)
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What occurred to me two minutes ago
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to end this...
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Who thinks that wants to be involved
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in DebConf 14 and wants to sit here?
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[laughter]
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Hopefully more on the Internet!
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[laughter]
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Lucas: So, if you go back to the previous slide,
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No, the one before, yes.
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So, the fact that you state that
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future generations will do the same
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that's quite strange.
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You started by saying that Debian
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has many different teams with
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many different decision processes,
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and I wonder if each DebConf should
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not be seen as a different Debian team, kind of,
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with a, maybe, different
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DebConf decision making mechanisms
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based on, for example
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the past experience of DebConf organizers.
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About Debian and DebConf.
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For example, next year we have a local team with
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people from a small derivative who are not
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very familiar with Debian, so
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[laughter]
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No, I'm just joking
368
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But it could raise some different issues
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from a DebConf where there is a really
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strong local team from people who
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don't know Debian very well.
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As it has occurred in the past.
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And then, the decision making process
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could need to be different in two cases.
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Didier: I quite concur with what was just said
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because my personal experience from, at least
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the transition from last year's DebConf
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and this DebConf is that it's just a
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different set of people
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working on the DebConf.
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And the Chairs are like the
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the thing that connects the different DebConfs
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and maybe tries to get some homogeneity
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between the DebConfs, but in the end
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the people doing most of the work
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00:20:40,268 --> 00:20:42,375
to make it happen is a completely
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different set of people.
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So, as well as I agreed that
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documenting decision processes
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and all that, we can also not expect
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everyone willing to participate in DebConf
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organization to spend a week reading Wiki pages.
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Although it's good to have documentation,
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it's also a team of people that maybe
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know each other, have ways of
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taking decisions, or working towards a goal together
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and that is also something valuable in
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the DebConf organization.
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I think.
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Holger: But why do you have to read documentation?
401
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You also read documentation for packaging.
402
00:21:18,475 --> 00:21:20,614
Andreas: Now I need to, a bit,
403
00:21:20,614 --> 00:21:21,915
disagree with what you said
404
00:21:21,915 --> 00:21:26,319
I have noticed that... I have been now to
405
00:21:26,319 --> 00:21:27,949
this is my sixth DebConf I am at
406
00:21:27,949 --> 00:21:31,190
and at previous years, for example,
407
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when we had the DebConf at Mexico
408
00:21:33,911 --> 00:21:36,486
the team was even mostly staffed by
409
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the global team, there were a few
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00:21:38,897 --> 00:21:40,900
local team members, and I'm actually
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not so sure that it's good
412
00:21:42,956 --> 00:21:44,460
to have a complete reshape of the team
413
00:21:44,460 --> 00:21:45,890
for every DebConf.
414
00:21:45,890 --> 00:21:47,167
So I think we should try that
415
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we have some people involved in all DebConfs
416
00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,987
to have some people involved in more than one DebConf
417
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that they share the experience
418
00:21:52,700 --> 00:21:55,167
that we don't need to repeat the same mistakes
419
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we did before
420
00:21:56,929 --> 00:21:59,199
and actually what I think is really
421
00:21:59,199 --> 00:22:00,824
we should have a Governance Board
422
00:22:00,824 --> 00:22:03,006
which helps us doing this in the ways that we want
423
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so nobody says about, you have to read
424
00:22:05,186 --> 00:22:07,861
one week of documents, but you should
425
00:22:07,861 --> 00:22:09,952
write your documents in a way that
426
00:22:09,952 --> 00:22:11,899
helps us reach our goals.
427
00:22:11,899 --> 00:22:14,133
That it makes actually easier, faster
428
00:22:14,133 --> 00:22:16,407
and less painful for all involved.
429
00:22:16,407 --> 00:22:18,763
Yes, I think it's worth to try to do that.
430
00:22:18,763 --> 00:22:23,999
And so, I think we should write more things up.
431
00:22:23,999 --> 00:22:26,290
And that the governance might be a bit different
432
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every different years of DebConf, as there
433
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are different people involved.
434
00:22:29,853 --> 00:22:31,066
That is OK for me
435
00:22:31,066 --> 00:22:32,476
however, if you change it, I think
436
00:22:32,476 --> 00:22:34,179
we need to agree on it first, and then change it.
437
00:22:34,179 --> 00:22:38,844
Rhalina: Yeah, that was
438
00:22:38,844 --> 00:22:41,413
you summed up my point quite well.
439
00:22:41,413 --> 00:22:42,780
I think we...
440
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It should be possible to establish
441
00:22:44,052 --> 00:22:46,630
a kind of process or experience things
442
00:22:46,630 --> 00:22:50,826
which could apply to many many DebConfs
443
00:22:50,826 --> 00:22:54,072
and could save us a lot of redefining
444
00:22:54,072 --> 00:22:56,394
and finding procedures
445
00:22:56,394 --> 00:22:58,384
as the issue is with new team members.
446
00:22:58,384 --> 00:23:02,322
I think, it must not be spelled out for all details
447
00:23:02,322 --> 00:23:05,734
but I think there are some things which are quite...
448
00:23:05,734 --> 00:23:09,039
which are similar between DebConfs, like
449
00:23:09,039 --> 00:23:12,501
whatever... "What do we need for network stuff",
450
00:23:12,501 --> 00:23:15,161
accomodations, we talked about this a lot...
451
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Holger: Let Gaudenz speak. Let's have...
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Gaudenz: I just want to throw in one
453
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thing that is, from my point of view, missing.
454
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We should think about when defining
455
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kind of a governance model, and that is
456
00:23:39,576 --> 00:23:44,504
we have to have a view on what's local and
457
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what's global.
458
00:23:47,903 --> 00:23:50,407
I think one year ago we kind of were
459
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at this idea of, "let's drop this local team
460
00:23:53,487 --> 00:23:56,739
and merge all things into global", and
461
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in my personal view, it failed.
462
00:24:00,678 --> 00:24:04,448
And the failure, I was thinking about this quite a lot,
463
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and I think one important point of the failure
464
00:24:06,907 --> 00:24:10,093
was, at the point of the failure, we were
465
00:24:10,093 --> 00:24:12,395
had quite a big local team
466
00:24:12,395 --> 00:24:16,436
like, taking everyone from the local team
467
00:24:16,436 --> 00:24:18,376
to the global team, and they were
468
00:24:18,376 --> 00:24:20,748
quite motivated by then, led to
469
00:24:20,748 --> 00:24:23,720
just the locals taking over the global team.
470
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Because we were quite a lot.
471
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And at the point, when the globals were
472
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recovering from the previous DebConf.
473
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I think that is something that needs thinking about.
474
00:24:39,180 --> 00:24:42,475
I don't have a solution, I currently
475
00:24:42,475 --> 00:24:46,086
rather tend to reinforce the local team
476
00:24:46,086 --> 00:24:48,723
more than what we did in the past,
477
00:24:48,723 --> 00:24:50,957
defining areas that are clearly
478
00:24:50,957 --> 00:24:53,405
in the competence of the local team
479
00:24:53,405 --> 00:24:56,062
and defining things that have to be done
480
00:24:56,062 --> 00:24:58,094
in a global level.
481
00:24:58,094 --> 00:25:00,428
And, one other thing about the consensus
482
00:25:00,428 --> 00:25:04,306
we should keep in mind is that
483
00:25:04,306 --> 00:25:06,571
as it is in real-life meetings,
484
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I can also observe in our lists and IRC meetings
485
00:25:11,473 --> 00:25:15,495
that basing everything on consensus
486
00:25:15,495 --> 00:25:19,233
and pushing back votes as far as possible
487
00:25:19,233 --> 00:25:22,261
leads to dominance by those that speak a lot
488
00:25:22,261 --> 00:25:24,377
those that feel comfortable to speak
489
00:25:24,377 --> 00:25:27,345
and so on and on.
490
00:25:27,345 --> 00:25:29,637
And I think we should also think about ways
491
00:25:29,637 --> 00:25:32,427
to value more the opinion of those
492
00:25:32,427 --> 00:25:34,487
that are probably not so comfortable in English
493
00:25:34,487 --> 00:25:36,738
and speak less.
494
00:25:36,738 --> 00:25:43,465
Holger: I'd like to say two things at least
495
00:25:43,465 --> 00:25:47,346
One is that the idea to have one team
496
00:25:47,346 --> 00:25:49,202
and not local and global team
497
00:25:49,202 --> 00:25:51,477
is not a year old idea, but rather something that
498
00:25:51,477 --> 00:25:53,861
is five or eight years old.
499
00:25:53,861 --> 00:25:56,751
It's really a long topic where we worked
500
00:25:56,751 --> 00:25:58,822
to have one team because there were
501
00:25:58,822 --> 00:26:00,543
problems in the past, and now
502
00:26:00,543 --> 00:26:02,653
when we achieved that, but we have new problems.
503
00:26:02,653 --> 00:26:06,763
Things change, and what you just described
504
00:26:06,763 --> 00:26:08,858
is throwing away experience
505
00:26:08,858 --> 00:26:11,948
which I think we must avoid.
506
00:26:11,948 --> 00:26:14,989
I'm sure that the DebConf14 team, even
507
00:26:14,989 --> 00:26:17,005
if they had nobody from DebConf13,
508
00:26:17,005 --> 00:26:19,358
or from previous DebConfs, will lead
509
00:26:19,358 --> 00:26:21,741
to a good conference, but I think
510
00:26:21,741 --> 00:26:23,789
it will be a better conference if
511
00:26:23,789 --> 00:26:26,033
there is some continuity.
512
00:26:26,033 --> 00:26:31,546
And, that was the one point
513
00:26:31,546 --> 00:26:33,920
and the other point which I'm
514
00:26:33,920 --> 00:26:42,325
having is really that I think that
515
00:26:42,325 --> 00:26:46,656
it's a very difficult discussion at the moment
516
00:26:46,656 --> 00:26:49,142
because many people are not here
517
00:26:49,142 --> 00:26:52,972
also, didn't come to DebConf 13.
518
00:26:52,972 --> 00:27:01,049
And also, want to hold myself back now
519
00:27:01,049 --> 00:27:03,077
because I've said a lot of things
520
00:27:03,077 --> 00:27:05,113
but I don't think the discussion is now
521
00:27:05,113 --> 00:27:08,331
...leveled.
522
00:27:08,331 --> 00:27:10,868
And I don't want to shut down
523
00:27:10,868 --> 00:27:13,454
your words, but I'd like to keep in mind
524
00:27:13,454 --> 00:27:15,602
that this is talk, and talk is cheap
525
00:27:15,602 --> 00:27:20,495
and somebody needs to do something.
526
00:27:20,495 --> 00:27:24,718
Sometime.
527
00:27:24,718 --> 00:27:31,240
Arne: Yes. My question is now for the oldies
528
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,498
in this round: which experiences do you
529
00:27:34,498 --> 00:27:37,920
actually talk about? This is something that came up
530
00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:42,280
a number of times in the underpinnings
531
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:44,363
of some discussions over here,
532
00:27:44,363 --> 00:27:48,192
that there have been experiences from past DebConfs
533
00:27:48,192 --> 00:27:52,846
which makes joining the local and global team worthwile.
534
00:27:52,846 --> 00:27:57,676
So, there was never an explicit
535
00:27:57,676 --> 00:28:01,855
"what experiences are this".
536
00:28:01,855 --> 00:28:05,096
Holger: For example, the DebConf 12 team wanted
537
00:28:05,096 --> 00:28:07,835
to sign a venue, was about to sign a venue,
538
00:28:07,835 --> 00:28:14,888
for which there was no money.
539
00:28:14,888 --> 00:28:21,916
Steve: Sorry, I'm trying to unwind now,
540
00:28:21,916 --> 00:28:23,734
trying to remember what I was about to say,
541
00:28:23,734 --> 00:28:25,882
Regarding, oh, the DC14 perspective
542
00:28:25,882 --> 00:28:29,726
I mean, we are looking to put on a good conference
543
00:28:29,726 --> 00:28:31,840
and we would like to do that with the help of
544
00:28:31,840 --> 00:28:33,890
those who have been in DebConf a while,
545
00:28:33,890 --> 00:28:36,335
and have the experience and knowledge
546
00:28:36,335 --> 00:28:38,549
on how all the infrastructure works,
547
00:28:38,549 --> 00:28:42,942
that we can leverage, to put on a conference.
548
00:28:42,942 --> 00:28:46,059
But the other thing that I am hoping
549
00:28:46,059 --> 00:28:47,967
that we can accomplish here is...
550
00:28:47,967 --> 00:28:49,934
Because this year the conference is being run
551
00:28:49,934 --> 00:28:52,519
at the local level by folks who have
552
00:28:52,519 --> 00:28:54,838
been involved in DebConf in the past, which
553
00:28:54,838 --> 00:28:57,111
for the past years has not really been the case,
554
00:28:57,111 --> 00:28:59,329
which is not a problem, but I'm hoping
555
00:28:59,329 --> 00:29:02,295
we come from a position that we can
556
00:29:02,295 --> 00:29:04,927
as we go along, we can be writing down
557
00:29:04,927 --> 00:29:09,527
the things and helping with the documentation problem
558
00:29:09,527 --> 00:29:11,719
in order to pass things on for the next year as well.
559
00:29:11,719 --> 00:29:16,153
That's one of my goals in DC14, it is
560
00:29:16,153 --> 00:29:17,920
to be able to provide for future conferences
561
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,242
well, perhaps more systematically
562
00:29:21,242 --> 00:29:23,951
than we have done in the past.
563
00:29:23,951 --> 00:29:36,168
Didier: One thing about consensus is
564
00:29:36,168 --> 00:29:39,070
I think, I have the feeling that it can
565
00:29:39,070 --> 00:29:40,837
work for technical decisions
566
00:29:40,837 --> 00:29:43,768
we can postpone, like, a release [laughter]
567
00:29:43,768 --> 00:29:44,598
But DebConf is time-based.
568
00:29:44,598 --> 00:29:49,586
And maybe that's related to how Switzerland works,
569
00:29:49,586 --> 00:29:54,343
but we just... it's not possible and it has
570
00:29:54,343 --> 00:29:56,678
not been possible to postpone
571
00:29:56,678 --> 00:29:59,293
the signature of a contract,
572
00:29:59,293 --> 00:30:01,567
or the giving out of money,
573
00:30:01,567 --> 00:30:03,947
and definitely because you then have
574
00:30:03,947 --> 00:30:06,100
counterflames that come back, by that postponing,
575
00:30:06,100 --> 00:30:10,505
and by that just taking time to find a good
576
00:30:10,505 --> 00:30:12,174
consensus is just...
577
00:30:12,174 --> 00:30:15,595
It's all fine for us, and it's good
578
00:30:15,595 --> 00:30:17,849
that we can find consensus,
579
00:30:17,849 --> 00:30:20,054
but when we have a time-based deadline
580
00:30:20,054 --> 00:30:22,323
and time-based things that we have to get out,
581
00:30:22,323 --> 00:30:24,282
and DebConf happens on a specific date,
582
00:30:24,282 --> 00:30:26,382
we have to find a way to shorten
583
00:30:26,382 --> 00:30:28,650
this consensus-finding period
584
00:30:28,650 --> 00:30:31,463
in a situation where people can
585
00:30:31,463 --> 00:30:33,966
actually take a decision and go ahead.
586
00:30:33,966 --> 00:30:37,402
Steve: I'd like to quite strongly agree
587
00:30:37,402 --> 00:30:38,886
with Didier on this point.
588
00:30:38,886 --> 00:30:40,830
Because it is time based.
589
00:30:40,830 --> 00:30:42,792
The effect of always requiring a consensus,
590
00:30:42,792 --> 00:30:44,612
although we should certainly try to be a team
591
00:30:44,612 --> 00:30:46,084
that works well together, and
592
00:30:46,084 --> 00:30:47,595
does things based on consensus,
593
00:30:47,595 --> 00:30:49,245
because when you have consensus
594
00:30:49,245 --> 00:30:50,705
people feel better about things
595
00:30:50,705 --> 00:30:52,507
The problem is, when you don't have consensus
596
00:30:52,507 --> 00:30:54,758
and you don't have a process for deciding
597
00:30:54,758 --> 00:30:56,541
in the absence of consensus, the net result
598
00:30:56,541 --> 00:30:59,522
is that it drags on, it drains everybody
599
00:30:59,522 --> 00:31:02,514
and everybody feels miserable at the end of it
600
00:31:02,514 --> 00:31:04,943
because, some people get their way, but
601
00:31:04,943 --> 00:31:06,578
had to fight for it, other people didn't
602
00:31:06,578 --> 00:31:08,682
get their way, and had to fight for it,
603
00:31:08,682 --> 00:31:10,677
and repeats itself over and over again
604
00:31:10,677 --> 00:31:12,310
and, so, I think it's important that
605
00:31:12,310 --> 00:31:14,745
as we are talking about processes for DebConf
606
00:31:14,745 --> 00:31:17,357
that we do have a way to efficiently
607
00:31:17,357 --> 00:31:19,679
decide on the absence of consensus.
608
00:31:19,679 --> 00:31:21,699
And some of this, I think, means also
609
00:31:21,699 --> 00:31:23,967
developing more a culture of actively seeking
610
00:31:23,967 --> 00:31:26,187
consensus, and understanding what the
611
00:31:26,187 --> 00:31:29,652
consensus is, and taking decisions that
612
00:31:29,652 --> 00:31:32,980
the whole team can support, but some of it
613
00:31:32,980 --> 00:31:35,674
is that you have deciders of last resort,
614
00:31:35,674 --> 00:31:37,622
who will take the decisions when they need to.
615
00:31:37,622 --> 00:31:39,557
And I think that is something that has not happened
616
00:31:39,557 --> 00:31:41,404
in the recent past within the DebConf
617
00:31:41,404 --> 00:31:42,903
organization, and that's important that we address.
618
00:31:42,903 --> 00:31:46,638
Andreas: And I really think that, better
619
00:31:46,638 --> 00:31:48,207
than consensus, rough consensus.
620
00:31:48,207 --> 00:31:50,933
I don't think we need to have a total consensus ever,
621
00:31:50,933 --> 00:31:53,749
and I believe on the idea, but that at least
622
00:31:53,749 --> 00:31:56,762
we have to say, yes the team wants to go this way.
623
00:31:56,762 --> 00:32:01,060
Steve and I, we know we have had both lots of discussion
624
00:32:01,060 --> 00:32:04,377
where we had had different opinions while
625
00:32:04,377 --> 00:32:06,516
we were both release managers
626
00:32:06,516 --> 00:32:08,737
I don't think any of you has ever seen a friction
627
00:32:08,737 --> 00:32:10,659
between us on the topic, but there were
628
00:32:10,659 --> 00:32:12,887
discussions and we had a proper way
629
00:32:12,887 --> 00:32:14,842
to handle that.
630
00:32:14,842 --> 00:32:16,605
And that's the same that I think that
631
00:32:16,605 --> 00:32:18,054
is really needed for DebConf
632
00:32:18,054 --> 00:32:19,821
it's, we should try to arrive to consensus
633
00:32:19,821 --> 00:32:21,554
or rough consensus, but if that doesn't work,
634
00:32:21,554 --> 00:32:23,382
the right decisions have to be made
635
00:32:23,382 --> 00:32:24,891
and they have to be made fast.
636
00:32:24,891 --> 00:32:26,881
But in a way that nobody is hurt and we can go on
637
00:32:26,881 --> 00:32:29,616
and continue to seek consensus again for the next one
638
00:32:29,616 --> 00:32:31,761
because consensus also means, well,
639
00:32:31,761 --> 00:32:34,124
rough consensus means that as a team
640
00:32:34,124 --> 00:32:36,109
agrees, we go ahead with it, and not just
641
00:32:36,109 --> 00:32:38,817
some will run around and the next ones
642
00:32:38,817 --> 00:32:40,790
is going to fight against it.
643
00:32:40,790 --> 00:32:42,230
Because fighting is even worse,
644
00:32:42,230 --> 00:32:44,248
it introduces a bit of delay most often.
645
00:32:44,248 --> 00:32:55,792
Bremner: Would one of you like a microphone?
646
00:32:55,792 --> 00:32:59,564
Andreas: So the question was, how did we
647
00:32:59,564 --> 00:33:01,084
do in the Release Team?
648
00:33:01,084 --> 00:33:04,691
I think there were two different answers for that
649
00:33:04,691 --> 00:33:08,004
One is, I mean, we all know we couldn't...
650
00:33:08,004 --> 00:33:11,003
that we need to come to a common opinion anyway
651
00:33:11,003 --> 00:33:13,484
because there is no need to do it otherwise
652
00:33:13,484 --> 00:33:16,936
so it was hard, and lots of cases, I still
653
00:33:16,936 --> 00:33:19,731
disagree with you, but still go ahead, or
654
00:33:19,731 --> 00:33:22,294
ask a way around, so this is one way to go.
655
00:33:22,294 --> 00:33:25,016
Then there was consensus not only on the
656
00:33:25,016 --> 00:33:27,569
Release Managers, but on the Release Team.
657
00:33:27,569 --> 00:33:29,294
So, when one of us noticed he was alone in
658
00:33:29,294 --> 00:33:31,756
the Release Team, the Release Managers would
659
00:33:31,756 --> 00:33:33,788
say, "just do it".
660
00:33:33,788 --> 00:33:35,474
I don't mind too much.
661
00:33:35,474 --> 00:33:37,525
And in the exceptional case where one of us said
662
00:33:37,525 --> 00:33:39,132
"yes, I do mind so much", then mostly
663
00:33:39,132 --> 00:33:41,919
we tried to respect it, because we had a lot
664
00:33:41,919 --> 00:33:44,430
of respect for each other's hard work
665
00:33:44,430 --> 00:33:46,654
And the last one, there was one case where we
666
00:33:46,654 --> 00:33:48,497
really couldn't agree, we escalated it together
667
00:33:48,497 --> 00:33:51,221
to the Technical Committee for decision.
668
00:33:51,221 --> 00:33:56,653
Bremner: I wanted to make a remark which
669
00:33:56,653 --> 00:33:59,280
wasn't about consensus or voting
670
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,142
but about decision making
671
00:34:02,142 --> 00:34:04,972
And my experience this year on Bursaries was
672
00:34:04,972 --> 00:34:08,704
not that we had difficulty reaching consensus,
673
00:34:08,704 --> 00:34:15,954
but that there was nobody who felt
674
00:34:15,954 --> 00:34:18,667
responsible for driving the process enough.
675
00:34:18,667 --> 00:34:22,281
I know. Steve is pointing at me, and I think
676
00:34:22,281 --> 00:34:25,117
eventually it was me. Which is fine!
677
00:34:25,117 --> 00:34:27,692
But it would have been better if I knew that earlier.
678
00:34:27,692 --> 00:34:31,215
Holger: Details!
679
00:34:31,215 --> 00:34:33,873
Bremner: So, I think, when we talk about
680
00:34:33,873 --> 00:34:35,784
organizing things, it's not just about
681
00:34:35,784 --> 00:34:37,904
how we make final or difficult decisions,
682
00:34:37,904 --> 00:34:40,087
but to deciding who is responsible for
683
00:34:40,087 --> 00:34:42,373
gettings things done is also important.
684
00:34:42,373 --> 00:34:47,877
Holger: I'd like to comment... You both
685
00:34:47,877 --> 00:34:53,873
described how consensus is difficult, or has problems
686
00:34:53,873 --> 00:34:58,193
before the conference. To me, it's way more difficult
687
00:34:58,193 --> 00:35:02,952
during the conference, because there's even less time usually.
688
00:35:02,952 --> 00:35:07,352
So, I think in this consensus model there needs
689
00:35:07,352 --> 00:35:12,421
to be, "what do we do if we don't reach consensus".
690
00:35:12,421 --> 00:35:15,143
that needs to be in there definitively.
691
00:35:15,143 --> 00:35:17,730
And I'd like to ask, is there anybody watching the
692
00:35:17,730 --> 00:35:24,589
Talkroom 1 IRC channel? Is there some useful input?
693
00:35:24,589 --> 00:35:27,218
And I'd like to end this session, because
694
00:35:27,218 --> 00:35:29,049
I think we are getting in circles. I think we
695
00:35:29,049 --> 00:35:31,088
have five more minutes left
696
00:35:31,088 --> 00:35:33,632
but I don't think we need to use these five more minutes
697
00:35:33,632 --> 00:35:36,418
because we have to work with documenting
698
00:35:36,418 --> 00:35:38,768
and I really regret I did not put this document
699
00:35:38,768 --> 00:35:41,171
on Gobby before this session, and then didn't
700
00:35:41,171 --> 00:35:43,929
had it happen.
701
00:35:43,929 --> 00:35:48,497
So, did somebody check IRC? Is there something?
702
00:35:48,497 --> 00:35:54,155
Bremner: I can forward Madduck agreeing with me.
703
00:35:54,155 --> 00:35:57,779
So, Madduck says, "I think the important thing
704
00:35:57,779 --> 00:35:59,967
is exactly related to what Bremner has just said.
705
00:35:59,967 --> 00:36:02,685
Conflict prevention is a lot about definition of roles
706
00:36:02,685 --> 00:36:07,006
and management of expectations."
707
00:36:07,006 --> 00:36:10,528
Gaudenz: And I think that's one reason why
708
00:36:10,528 --> 00:36:15,381
we should not just end the session now and go out
709
00:36:15,381 --> 00:36:18,656
but try to follow that and have at least
710
00:36:18,656 --> 00:36:24,304
some understanding on how we will actually
711
00:36:24,304 --> 00:36:27,086
reach to a better point.
712
00:36:27,086 --> 00:36:29,469
If there's someone who wants to do proposals
713
00:36:29,469 --> 00:36:30,857
or a small group or whatever
714
00:36:30,857 --> 00:36:33,407
or we all should write to the mailing list, or...
715
00:36:33,407 --> 00:36:36,656
Because I feel a bit that we had a nice session now,
716
00:36:36,656 --> 00:36:39,791
we had quite some good discussions, but it
717
00:36:39,791 --> 00:36:42,322
won't change anything.
718
00:36:42,322 --> 00:36:46,175
Holger: I think this will be the case anyway,
719
00:36:46,175 --> 00:36:48,427
whether we continue five more minutes or not.
720
00:36:48,427 --> 00:36:50,343
There are five more minutes.
721
00:36:50,343 --> 00:36:54,128
Steve: The point is not whether we are using the
722
00:36:54,128 --> 00:36:55,732
five minutes here, but what are we doing
723
00:36:55,732 --> 00:36:57,585
to continue this discussion.
724
00:36:57,585 --> 00:36:59,493
Holger: OK, but then lets spend the five minutes
725
00:36:59,493 --> 00:37:01,116
to talk about this, and not about whether we should...
726
00:37:01,116 --> 00:37:04,483
...details in the decision process.
727
00:37:04,483 --> 00:37:06,344
Gaudenz: I was probably not clear enough...
728
00:37:06,344 --> 00:37:08,232
Holger: And what you [gaudenz] said yesterday
729
00:37:08,232 --> 00:37:10,232
that you would be, after Debconf, be very busy
730
00:37:10,232 --> 00:37:12,659
with finishing DebConf13, and so, my idea
731
00:37:12,659 --> 00:37:18,078
would be to discuss this decision making process
732
00:37:18,078 --> 00:37:19,872
and define it
733
00:37:19,872 --> 00:37:23,026
when the DebConf13 Final Report is done.
734
00:37:23,026 --> 00:37:25,650
[laughter]
735
00:37:25,650 --> 00:37:33,575
Don't do it now.
736
00:37:33,575 --> 00:37:37,971
Lucas: Yes. So, one thing I'm kind of wondering is,
737
00:37:37,971 --> 00:37:41,969
Wouldn't quite a good solution would be
738
00:37:41,969 --> 00:37:46,269
to ask the DebConf Chairs to actually make that work,
739
00:37:46,269 --> 00:37:49,284
of defining... Making sure the rules are clearly defined
740
00:37:49,284 --> 00:37:52,491
and defining decision making processes that
741
00:37:52,491 --> 00:37:54,854
work with the local team for each DebConf.
742
00:37:54,854 --> 00:37:58,481
Instead of defining one that would always
743
00:37:58,481 --> 00:38:01,478
be applied to each different DebConf, maybe
744
00:38:01,478 --> 00:38:05,276
that's part of what, or that should be part of
745
00:38:05,276 --> 00:38:07,366
what DebConf Chairs responsibility to ensure
746
00:38:07,366 --> 00:38:13,319
that... I'm not sure which phrasing on the delegation,
747
00:38:13,319 --> 00:38:15,858
but that budget is used in a sensible way.
748
00:38:15,858 --> 00:38:16,767
Holger: The Release Team delegates also decides
749
00:38:16,767 --> 00:38:21,146
how the Release Team works, as far as I know.
750
00:38:21,146 --> 00:38:24,790
Or other delegates decide how their...
751
00:38:24,790 --> 00:38:27,503
OK.
752
00:38:27,503 --> 00:38:35,721
Arne: So, I must somehow put my word against
753
00:38:35,721 --> 00:38:40,406
the idea of putting this decision back until
754
00:38:40,406 --> 00:38:43,374
the final report is out, because that's
755
00:38:43,374 --> 00:38:46,299
the case is that the last DebConf that would have
756
00:38:46,299 --> 00:38:48,432
been by the middle of this year.
757
00:38:48,432 --> 00:38:52,350
Holger: By the time that the Final Report is out,
758
00:38:52,350 --> 00:38:53,798
or in two months.
759
00:38:53,798 --> 00:38:56,389
Arne: Better.
760
00:38:56,389 --> 00:39:06,302
Bremner: Ok. So I just want to relay
761
00:39:06,302 --> 00:39:08,057
a complaint from Ganneff.
762
00:39:08,057 --> 00:39:09,800
You will be surprised to hear Ganneff complaining.
763
00:39:09,800 --> 00:39:12,766
So Ganneff says, he won't change anything because
764
00:39:12,766 --> 00:39:14,985
there's not enough people in the session or at DebConf.
765
00:39:14,985 --> 00:39:17,845
He remarks on the fact that we are missing two Chairs
766
00:39:17,845 --> 00:39:20,377
and lots of team members.
767
00:39:20,377 --> 00:39:24,429
Holger: I think this is a good closing statement.
768
00:39:24,429 --> 00:39:29,002
Enjoy the last day of DebConf!
769
00:39:29,002 --> 00:39:30,000
[applause]