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*34c3 intro*

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Herald: Okay, so again, once again: Good
morning to everyone! We are really sorry

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for the delay, but as you know this is the
Chaos Communication Congress. Chaos is

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part of the show. In any case, we are
ready to start our first speaker for the

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day. This is a talk that I'm personally
very excited about. Very interesting in my

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opinion. Our first speaker is an
architect. He's a professor of spatial and

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visual cultures, and the director of a
forensic architecture at Goldsmiths

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University in London. Please give a big
round of applause to Eyal Weizman.

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*applause*

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*microphone off, inaudible*

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Eyal Weizman: excited to be here. My first
congress, atually, and I'm sure it's gonna

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bring good luck. The fact that we had some
technical equipment problem right now. I'm

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running in London something that is better
described as a counter forensic agency, as

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a civil society counter forensic agency.
There's no better way to explain what

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counter forensics is, a certain turning
around, repurposing of the forensic gaze

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towards the state, then looking at a
series of issues where security forces or

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the police are the perpetrator. So, what
I'm going to show you today, very fast,

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are three cases. The first one in Israel,
second one in Germany, third one in Mexico.

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Each one involves violence or alleged
violence by the police and each one also

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involves a different mode of research and
technique, in doing so. First one is a

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place where I come from, Israel Palestine,
and the issue is really the force eviction

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of Bedouin communities that have been
living in the north part of the Naqab or

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Negev desert in the south of Israel, for
generations now declared by the state to

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be illegally occupying those places and are
subject to continuous raids by which the

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police... Oops, you don't see the slides.

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Slides? Slide? Guys? Okay. Sorry, one second.

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*Inaudible*

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*laughter*

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All right, so I'll tell you a
little bit more about forensic

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architecture until until they do so.
Basically what we are is a group of

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architects, filmmakers, some investigative
journalists, coders and we join together

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to create a forensic agency.
It was a kind of an experiment that we

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started around 2010, because we felt that
both,technological and political changes

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enabled and demanded a form of counter
forensics that we are now practicing.

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Initially, we were working in conflict
zones. Towards, or starting, really, in

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this millennium, in the year 2000, war
became an urban phenomena. Almost all

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conflicts that we were looking at took
place in cities, in and amongst buildings.

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So in a very straightforward way, just
like a medical doctor, a physician can

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turn into a pathologist, we architects,
we're turning the tools of our trade,

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understanding of building, a way of
interpreting its materiality, its

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physicality into an evidentiary technique.
So initially, what we were doing was a

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kind of archaeology. Archaeology of the
very recent past, or archaeology of the

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present - this is a term by Gilles
Deleuze - and looking at piles of ruin,

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of a building that was destroyed in a bomb
or in a firefight, and trying to read from

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the disposition of the rubble something
about what has taken place within

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and around it. So it started as a kind of
an archaeological practice. But then

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again, very often, when we start working in
conflict zones, and the first projects we

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had were in Palestine and then in... we
were working to uncover drone warfare in

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the Pakistan-Afghanistan frontier, we
realized very fast...

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Technician: Sorry, could you... *inaudible*
Eyal: Should I what?

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Technician: The presentation on that stick
so you can use this laptop.

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E: Oh, this gonna take 20 minutes to pass
them.

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T: Really?
E: Yeah.

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I mean, because I started to put it on a stick,
and... Listen, can you connect this

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I'm gonna do something else...
Technician: This is connected. Can you...

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E: If you can get an image from this, I'm
just gonna run things from my website.

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So, as I said, the first level of our work was
archaeological. Material archaeology,

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trying to uncover what has taken place,
where people were. But increasingly, we

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realized that we cannot really get to the
places where it was most important for us

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to research. That states, when they
violate human rights, or...

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T: If you want, you can...
E: Okay. Thank you very much.

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Often also do two things: They close the

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area to any investigator, any human
right group, or anyone that works to

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collect evidence against them. And they
limit the ability of signal to come out of

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them. This is actually what happened in
2008, 2009 in Gaza. Very little signal was

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coming out of Gaza under attack by Israeli
forces and this is what happened when at

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the beginning of the American drone strike
campaign in Pakistan Afghanistan, they

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were effectively limiting it. So what
we had to do, and this is what you're

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gonna start seeing, is to undertake
archeology through looking at media and

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interpreting, really, the kind of flood of
social media images that were coming our

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way.

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I'm not used to this.

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Okay.

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*applause*

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Okay, so the first example I would like to
show you is work we've done with a

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Palestinian human right organization, Al
Mezan, and Amnesty in Gaza in 2014. We

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could not go. We asked for permission to
go to Gaza at that time. Our access was

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denied and all we had was about 70
thousand images, that we have collected

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during that day and what we had to do,
really, is tell a story of one day: August

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1st 2014, morning to evening, which was
the most violent, and the day where most

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Palestinian casualties were sustained.
What we didn't have was the metadata on

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those clips and images, because of course
they were harvested either from mainstream

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or social media and we effectively had to
develop a technique to look at the bomb

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clouds themselves to look at them, and
compose the architecture of the bomb cloud

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plumes in order to see and collect images
that refer to the same explosion and, back

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from there, to determine the time and place
of each one of those bombs. So those bomb

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clouds were for us the metadata, they
were kind of like physical metadata. Here

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is how we geolocate one of the images
that we found - or one of the clips that we

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found - by comparing points on a
perspective of the video with what we see on a

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satellite image, located the place where
the photographer was. And by cross-

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referencing three of those, of the same
cloud, we managed to find the precise

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place where the bomb has finally landed.
So, this is effectively a way in which you

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can reconstruct metadata, a time space
location from what we call physical

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clocks, that is to say, analog things that
exist within the image itself.

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However, we can see other things on this
photograph, too. If we look at one of

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those images, here, we have the
videographer capturing two shadow lines in

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this photograph. Just a second before
closing off the camera, and what we need

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to do is to try to establish the time. If
we can establish the time on that image,

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and we know that form of the cloud is that
time, we can triangulate on and establish

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the times of other videos, and then move
further. So, effectively by building a 3D

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model and running a Sun simulation on it,
we could arrive at a very precise,

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within five minutes margin of error, time
on that image. And now we know where this

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image, where this video was taken and what
time it is taken in. There is, however,

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another in the satellite image that we
obtained - this is a kind of a very rare

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occasion. We saw an actual bomb on the
satellite image. Again, this is something...

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the satellite image has metadata. And we
started looking, started hunting for that

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bomb in images from the ground. Again, if
we could locate that what we see in the

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top view on from a ground view, we will be
able to to start establishing times on the

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sequence. As you see, this sequence has
metadata, but the metadata is wrongly set

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at around midnight. So we compose that
kind of panorama of the bomb

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clouds off of the city around that time
and we could identify that cloud. This is

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the cloud in side view, this is it in top
view. We could find a precise location, a

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precise time, and then by confirming that
is actually the same, we can move back and

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correct the digital metadata. So this is
all techniques of actually establishing

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the very basic foundational stone of
research time-space relations, between

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events.
Here, for example, we could see in two

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different corners of the web we find those
images. We can verify it's the same camera

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by seeing the same scratch on the lens.
Correct the metadata, establish the time

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difference between them and now, here
again, the same camera man with the same

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scratch on the lens. And now we can
compose a timeline of bombs during that

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day. And after that, of course these kind
of cloud atlases are a technique that was

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used by artists and by amateur
meteorologists all the way from the 19th

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century on. What we did is creating that
kind of archive of clouds, but here what

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you see is that we were able to convert
them to information on the ground, and

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then invert the image move from cloud to
city. What you see here, the model, is

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something that we call the architectural
image complex. Architectural models are

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the only ways to make sense and to place
those multiple images in space-time, so

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that we can navigate rather than edit
them. We can navigate between one image

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and the other. What you've seen here is
that on one of the images, looking so

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carefully at the bomb cloud, we start
seeing two images in mid-fall. We found

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the craters, where they have landed. And,
we could, for lawyers calculate the kind

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of like the destruction radius there. You
would see now, again those horrific thing

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to see a bomb just split seconds before it
land on the ground and would kill 16

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palestinian, an entire family. But the
lawyers asked for the size of that bomb,

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in order to bring in a kind of a supply
chain action on it. When we see that on

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the photo frame we can locate the
photo frame within the model of the city

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and actually measure those bombs in a very
precise, with a very small under ten

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percent margin of error and then go to the
catalog and find exactly which bomb it was

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that landed, and that would enable
activists to go after the manufacturer,

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after the policy of doing that.
So again, here we are moving within the

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model, with thermodynamic specialists we
look at the way the cloud is changing, in

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order to really realize we're looking at
the same clouds. We're picking up now

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images and events within the city as
clouds being the anchors of the

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reconstruction and that project has in
fact gone later, as evidence was

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submitted to the ICC, to the International
Criminal Court and was used in various

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other form of activism on the ground. And,
to certain extent, might have contributed

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to a change of policy by the IDF, about
the honeybell directives, that is

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something that they've enacted during that
day. And the bomb cloud were also

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something that was very important, were also
like memory anchors. The witnesses on the

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ground remembered and could sequence their
movement according to those bomb clouds.

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So think about an element that combines
and ties together material evidence, media

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evidence and memory evidence at the same
time. So that's, I don't even, I'm

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basically just improvising. It's not at
all the lecture I wanted to show you

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before. Here is a very recent
investigation we've undertaken in

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Cameroon, and were together again with
Amnesty International we were able to

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expose a secret detention center run
by the Cameroonian military where

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Boko Haram prisoners or suspects of Boko
Haram prisoners were actually tortured. We

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had access to people in Cameroonian
prisons. It is very rare occasion, we were

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able to actually send questions back and
forth and reconstruct the architecture of

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the prison and the conditions of
incarceration.

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But what became very important through the
questions that we continuously posed and

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continuously received from those suspects
is that they've actually seen in, at the

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beginning we did not know if this was
correct or not, they were obviously seeing

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people being tortured and killed outside
of the detention center, but at some point

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they also confirmed seeing something
different: American soldiers that were

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present
on the site.

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Now, as you know the US has claimed that
it has stopped rendition, and stopped

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involvement in torture, but this is
something that we started very closely

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digging in to see whether we could find
any traces of US soldiers and other

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European militaries involved within that,
sort of, incarceration and torture of Boko

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Haram suspect. First thing that we saw,
that we noticed was, and sometimes traces

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are left in the most kind of unexpected of
places. A contract, an American contract

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to connect that base to the Internet. The
minute that we saw that, that was put on

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the public domain we started following on
Facebook and seeing some American soldiers

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actually forgot to disconnect the location
tagging and you know they're kind of like

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holiday photographs. Could be very easily
located onto the base.

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Again we've built a model of the base, in

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order to confirm, precisely, where each
one of the photograph was taken and we can

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see that they had access to the entire
base. Again, a base where people are

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executed, tortured, etc. And then tracked
the unit, and as you see the site is

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actually under construction. Something
that we could not believe seeing was

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American soldiers training the unit that
is doing those atrocities and here in this

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almost comical film they train them in
night-vision equipment by playing

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football. So they all play football in the
dark with night vision and you could see

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that the involvement is very
direct. So that the exposure of that base

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led to sort of a full American, at the
beginning denial, always denial, then

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admission, then a full investigation by
the US about these allegations.

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Another important case that we were
involved with recently is the Ayotzinapa

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case. I think maybe many of you know the
story of the 43 students, Mexican

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students, that were forcefully disappeared
in Mexico. We were asked by the parents,

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and by other civil society group to
in fact.. investigate that.

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It's one of the biggest controversies in
Mexico right now, still, although it's

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three years since the disappearance.
Students involved in very grassroot, left-

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wing politics enter the Intercity that was
very much involved in narcos trade and

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were destroyed by the police, the military
and organized crime. What we've done here

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is not really collect new evidence, but
look at thousands and thousands of

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existing reports and wanting in fact to
data mine them. They were, you know,

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hundreds and thousands of documents and
the only way to to make sense of them was

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actually to look at relations between
different events in space-time, the

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relations between all phone calls,
photographs, movements of cars and gunshot

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started creating a very different picture,
than the Mexican government has actually

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was willing to admit and that is that
there was some local gang or local sort of

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organized crime group that was in charge
of these actions. So, we created a

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platform in which we placed every named
actor in space-time, a timeline in all the

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communications so that we could start
seeing relation between evidence. Often

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it's not a bit of evidence in itself, it's
not the casing or a gunshot that matters,

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but actually patterns, coordinations and
patterns of escalations and other things

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that actually expose what was going on and
we could show really a direct involvement

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between three different police forces and
the military and organized crime at the

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same time, the location of all CCTV cameras
that were there and removed, and somehow

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the relationship between phone calls and
attacks became most clear indication of

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command and control. That these events were
actually coordinated by the police.

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Here we are analyzing CCTV cameras and
what they would have seen. Of course the

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state, immediately after the event erased
every CCTV camera that existed, that was

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available in the city and they said or
they didn't show anything. We could show

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exactly what they would have shown at that
moment.

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Another element to this is, we

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go... so this is the platform, you can
actually go and explore it yourself rather

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than as sort of like a work with images.
As I said, this is a work with data. In

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one of the most important drawing and in
fact became one of the very influential

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drawing during that, in our investigation,
was a kind of a working drawing that we

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kept for ourselves, because we had to keep
track of where every agent was. What was

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the relationship between them, and also
the multiple narratives that were told. So

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we kind of kept a very very long drawing
at the office, plotting the movement of

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different actors, until at some point we
realize that what we were drawing, that

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working drawing became in fact an image of
disappearance.

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Because disappearance is not about,
enforced disappearance of people, is not

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only about grabbing people, killing them
and hiding the bodies. Disappearance is

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also an attack on evidence. It is the
continuous withdrawal and destruction of

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evidence. It is the introduction of false
narratives and subterfuge. So

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disappearance is in fact a narrative form
in itself and so here that drawing we

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could actually kind of like show how the
state narrative, here in black, I'm not

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going to go exactly into what everything
means because we lost a lot of time in

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this presentation, but these are the
movement of the students according to the

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state narrative. A state narrative that is
still officially holding, although it's

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being currently revised in response to
many things, but including also our

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investigation. And now you would see that
the victim, the survivor's narrative

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completely different. Starts... they enter the
city at a completely different time. They

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move through it and the divergence
between the black and the red narrative in

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fact is the space of denial and
disappearance. Disappearance as an ongoing

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crime, disappearance as a crime on
narrative etc. I'm gonna skip forward,

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just that you could see how the drawing is
built up with another here on top the

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purple images are, the purple lines,
those of the narcos and, so, each one

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tells a different story, and the multiple
stories are in fact that kind of space of

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disappearance. Here you would see these
are movements of police, throughout the

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city and you would see how that police
force is precisely next to the students

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all throughout the attack and moving along
with them. In fact, what we have finally

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done - and this is now green, is the
military, etc - is built that we knew about

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the, you know, who is it ...

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So this is the complete drawing that we've

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actually printed as an enormous mural. In
Mexico, murals are kind of sites of

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political pedagogy, you can think about
Diego Rivera's great murals in Mexico, in

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the US, where their narratives about the
history of the state and about the

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struggle of the working class. In a
certain sense, we thought that this is a

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kind of a mural of the 21st century, feel
like a kind of a data mural, that is

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complicated to read but its complication
is in fact the image of disappearance.

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These, the entangled line and
interruptions within it, is what makes

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that space.. hold on...

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exhibition... I want
to show you the image of that mural in the

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space, and it has become, ever since, a
kind of a site of political assembly and

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political activism, of protest, for the
families and others, and it kind of shows

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for us the use of cultural and art spaces
in the context of our work. Index is another

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problem in counter forensic. Very often
our evidence cannot enter the very

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official spaces of state justice, they
cannot. It's very rare that one can

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actually take the state, challenge the
state legally in its own institutions.

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What we need to establish are alternative
forums, and for us these could be public

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spaces, exhibitions, etc. I think some of
you might know about the work that we've

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done on the NSU, on the Temme, or the
Verfassungsschutz agent, that was suspected

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to be present in an internet cafe in
Kassel during the time of a racist

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killing, and us showing that he was there.
He could not have missed this event, that

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was presented in Documenta, and Documenta
offered for us another very interesting

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forum. The fact it was shown there
has in fact mobilized the process,

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including in a German federal
investigation, and also in a Hessen

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parliamentary investigation, where
different delegations from

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this parliamentary investigation came to
Documenta to see it. And finally, that work

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was presented to Temme. He was forced to
look at it and to comment upon it.

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I think, I should probably leave some time
to question. I'm sorry about the chaotic

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presentation, but I guess this is the
nature of this event, so I'm happy to have

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had at least a chance to present to you
some work. Thanks for listening.

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*Applause*

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Herald: So, thank you all for a very
interesting talk, despite of the

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difficulties. If you have any questions,
then there are four microphones, here in

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the center aisle and two on the side. And
you can line up and ask your questions,

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and first question microphone number one.
Microphone 1: How much has any official

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00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:37,500
state tried to shut down your
investigations, or...

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00:32:39,030 --> 00:32:47,919
Eyal: Well, this is... shutdown is a
complicated term. First of all,

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we face interruptions initially in not
being allowed access to sites. And this is

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very much the question in the West Bank
and Gaza. Our investigators, when they

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00:32:59,809 --> 00:33:05,980
land in Tel Aviv Airport, sometimes are
interrogated, sometimes they're turned around.

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Nothing of that is comparable to what the
Israeli state would have done if these

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00:33:12,690 --> 00:33:19,690
were Palestinians trying to do the same
thing, so to a certain extent me being an

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00:33:19,690 --> 00:33:28,289
Israeli Jew, I'm privileged by the state.
And the attempt is to use those privileges

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to undo those privileges to a certain
extent. We continuously had interruptions

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from the FBI, for example, when we did the
white phosphorus research, that included

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00:33:44,159 --> 00:33:51,629
work on their attacking Fallujah, Iraq, with
white phosphorus. We had some of our

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00:33:51,629 --> 00:33:58,759
collaborators in the US's home being
raided. We have, you know,

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00:33:58,759 --> 00:34:06,679
been trolled and threatened.
But, it's kind of a continuous sort of

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dance of us being to, kind of protect our
staff, protect our data, and attempt to

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00:34:14,820 --> 00:34:21,300
penetrate it. Attempts to smear us on a
public domain, and feel very little

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00:34:21,300 --> 00:34:23,730
victories sometimes.

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00:34:26,000 --> 00:34:27,870
Herald: Microphone 4.

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00:34:27,870 --> 00:34:32,857
4: Thank you very much for your talk. Two
part question here, the first one is about

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00:34:32,857 --> 00:34:37,126
the framework. Have you developed it
special for this case, do you have it

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00:34:37,126 --> 00:34:43,454
available, if you build new ones for each
research, and the second part is: How

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00:34:43,454 --> 00:34:49,007
do you sustain yourself financially.
Eyal: Actually, it's the same question,

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00:34:49,007 --> 00:34:53,550
because our aim is to develop new
evidentiary techniques, so we kind of

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00:34:53,550 --> 00:34:58,780
never do the same investigation twice or
we never use the same methodologies twice.

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00:34:58,780 --> 00:35:05,700
What we do, after we develop any software,
is that we put it on the public domain, we

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00:35:05,700 --> 00:35:13,120
put it as an open source code. And we, or
if it is kind of techniques of more

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00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:18,440
architectural or editing image based
techniques, we have academies, we teach

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00:35:18,440 --> 00:35:23,530
activists how to do it, so we try, whenever
we work with partners on the ground, to

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00:35:23,530 --> 00:35:30,810
leave capacity behind us. And that is also
the reason... or what enables this to us is

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00:35:30,810 --> 00:35:36,850
that we are sustained on research grants,
rather than only on commissions.

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00:35:36,850 --> 00:35:42,470
Although, you know, I mean, if a
prosecutor, human right group, or any other

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00:35:42,470 --> 00:35:47,910
civil society group would like to
commission us, we would... they would pay

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00:35:47,910 --> 00:35:52,570
for part of the investigation, but the
large part of it is actually research

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00:35:52,570 --> 00:36:00,930
grants that translated into open source
stuff, and the investigations are being

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00:36:00,930 --> 00:36:04,390
put in the public domain. It's kind of, when
you look at our videos, they're a little

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00:36:04,390 --> 00:36:08,441
bit like cooking programs, because they
both tell you what we find, and they tell

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you exactly how to do it. It's kind of,
take you step-by-step, this is what you do

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00:36:13,190 --> 00:36:18,290
here, then that, then this, etc.

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Herald: Microphone 4

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00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,790
4: Thank you so much for your work on
this. My question is like, how would any

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00:36:23,790 --> 00:36:29,760
of us be able to get involved in this,
support you in one way or another.

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00:36:29,760 --> 00:36:38,590
Eyal: We, in fact, we are now about 15
architects, coders, and filmmakers and we

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00:36:38,590 --> 00:36:45,260
are recruiting because we're growing. I
will stay here for the day, so anyone that

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00:36:45,260 --> 00:36:50,530
wants to come and work with us in London
or remotely, I'll be delighted to speak to

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00:36:50,530 --> 00:36:56,210
you.
Herald: Microphone 4

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00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:05,070
4: I have a question about which tools,
which techniques and tools do you use to

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00:37:05,070 --> 00:37:11,600
perform the 3D reconstruction, and if you
have partnered with any kind of company

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00:37:11,600 --> 00:37:17,820
that already has *inaudible* and already
does *inaudible* 3D *inaudible* as a

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00:37:17,820 --> 00:37:21,960
baseline.
Eyal: We started doing now

333
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:29,580
photogrammetry, as 3D reconstruction
from existing open source images. So

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00:37:29,580 --> 00:37:35,580
imagine, you know, a place in Syria, let's
say, that has been photographed or video-ed

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by many users. We are able
to reconstruct it. In fact this is one of

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00:37:41,230 --> 00:37:45,961
the techniques we use in order to identify
the gas attack on Khan Sheikhun in

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00:37:45,961 --> 00:37:52,120
Syria by the regime forces. Reconstructing
precisely, to the millimeter, the shape of

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00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:59,480
the crater. And we were able to reconstruct
from it the level of explosives etc, and

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00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:06,230
that they were fitting only that
particular rocket. We don't really work

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00:38:06,230 --> 00:38:12,810
together with companies, we try to take
existing softwares and kind of

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00:38:12,810 --> 00:38:20,250
adjust them to our aim. But
initially, what I want to leave you with, is

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the question of why architecture is really

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important here. In a situation when you
don't have only like two images of the

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scene, let's say police brutality or an
attack on a city etc, but you have 70,000

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and you need to cross-reference them and
you need to place them within a space, the

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00:38:42,500 --> 00:38:49,000
only way to do it is in architectural
models. Architecture is like the optical

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00:38:49,000 --> 00:38:54,760
device that allows us to sync up and
locate, you know, those cameras that are

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in space and moving in space. So, it is
really the necessity of work

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of architects, filmmakers, and coders is
fundamental, because space replaces the

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00:39:11,370 --> 00:39:16,980
kind of modernist montage as a relation to
images. Montage is the edits in film, that

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is kind of, you know, the basic of cinema,
of political cinema, the dialectic montage,

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if you like. You splice film and put it
together.

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That makes no sense for us, because we
need to move within space, pick up one

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00:39:31,030 --> 00:39:35,530
film, not to cut it, we never cut the
films that we have, we just leave them

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within the model in the full duration, but
the investigator can move and navigate in

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space and time between them, and as I
showed you in a Mexico case, you know,

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these are like tens and tens of thousands
of data points that create kind of

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00:39:53,910 --> 00:39:59,860
intersections, between data image and
architecture, where the story starts

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00:39:59,860 --> 00:40:11,850
to unfold at all. So yeah.
Herald: More questions. Microphone 3.

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00:40:11,850 --> 00:40:17,580
3: When you publish the videos and the time
and place from which they were taken,

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00:40:17,580 --> 00:40:22,690
how do you ensure that you're not putting in
danger the people who took the video.

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00:40:22,690 --> 00:40:29,310
Eyal: Yeah, this is a really good
question. We..., the work to sync up those

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00:40:29,310 --> 00:40:36,410
70,000 images from Gaza, where... took us
a year. Think about it, a year... we're

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00:40:36,410 --> 00:40:42,220
working a year on one day. That's about the
right kind of ratio in forensic time that

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00:40:42,220 --> 00:40:47,830
we are operating within it. What
protects people during war, during when

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they will do it, we'll never place their
location, but months after the conflict it

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was deemed by our partners in Palestine
and by our partners in Amnesty, that this

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00:41:04,190 --> 00:41:11,760
is safe to do without going back to each
source and in fact asking them. We would

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never do it in real time, though.
Herald: Microphone 4

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00:41:16,740 --> 00:41:27,400
4: Yes, the work you do strikes me as very
similar to what bellingcat do, so can you

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00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:29,520
comment on how forensic architecture
compares to bellingcat?

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00:41:29,520 --> 00:41:33,240
Eyal: No, we work a lot with bellingcat
and Elliot, I mean some some of our

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00:41:33,240 --> 00:41:42,960
projects are together, I guess that
our... the difference is not, we engage

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00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:52,550
more in sort of big environment and kind
of like data analysis, from many sort of

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00:41:52,550 --> 00:41:58,560
data points, where architecture, or
architectural models, are kind of the arena

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that holds and cross-reference all those
images together. The overlap in our work,

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00:42:04,590 --> 00:42:10,140
really, is a kind of image identification:
What do we see, where the image is located

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00:42:10,140 --> 00:42:22,760
etc, and on these issues we work with them
together. We tend to work more against

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states', western states', militaries, holding
them to account, we feel, is that these

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00:42:32,740 --> 00:42:39,390
techniques are actually much more useful
directed at the British, American, Israeli

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00:42:39,390 --> 00:42:48,030
militaries and that we are able also to
draw responses that are effective in these

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fields and I guess bellingcat has
slightly different sort of field in which

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they work.
Herald: Okay, I think with that, that

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would be our last question. So again, a
big round of applause to Eyal for a great

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00:43:01,825 --> 00:43:03,203
talk.
Eyal: Thank you.

386
00:43:03,203 --> 00:43:05,714
Herald: Thank you very much.

387
00:43:05,714 --> 00:43:13,330
*Applause*

388
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*34c3 outro*